Here is an hour-long DVD of a discussion I had with Joe Atwill, author of Caesar's Messiah. I haven't actually watched it, but my recollection that it is contains important information. :)
A Conversation on the Caesar's Messiah Thesis
Please note that I do not concur with Atwill's Josephus/Flavian thesis vis-a-vis the origin of the canonical gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. There remains no clear, scientific evidence for the emergence of the canonical gospels as we have them until the end of the second century, when they suddenly burst onto the scene with a slew of commentary. (For more information, see "When were the gospels written?")
Joe and I do agree that the "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional compilation of characters, real and mythical. We also concur that this effort to create what eventually became known as "Christianity" began in the first century, but the facts indicate that the Vespasian/Titus cult was evidently involved with the cult of Chrestos, not Christos, at that time. The real effort to compose the canonical gospels, moreover, did not occur until the middle of the second century, with the publication of the "heretic" Marcion's "New Testament" at Rome.
Joe and all the other people involved in this process were very nice, and we had a marvelous time filming it. So, thanks to all those good folks, including and especially Fritz Heede and Nijole Sparkis of NlightningworkZ!
Another link to the DVD:
A Conversation on the Caesar's Messiah Thesis
Is Jesus a fictional allegory created by the most powerful families in the 1st Century as a device for political control?
Could the title of "Christ" actually apply to a Roman Caesar?
In this informal discussion, Acharya S/D.M. Murdock and Joseph Atwill offer their perspectives on Atwill's provocative "Caesar's Messiah" Thesis, which concludes that Jesus is not a historical figure, that the Gospels are literature not history, and that the ministry of the fictional character Jesus is modeled on the military campaign of Roman Caesar Titus Flavius as he battled against the Jewish revolt in Judea.
The two scholars discuss why this "savior god" myth needed to be anchored in history in contrast to earlier similar myths that were not. The purpose was to create the ultimate Super State with the authority to represent God on Earth.
Title #337920
Format: DVD-R
Here's a review of this video:
"In this DVD I could clearly see the depth of Acharya's knowledge and wisdom. I was riveted by the conversation between her and author Atwill as they exchanged their knowledge of the people and places that may have created Christianity. Although Acharya has said she doesn't concur with Atwill's thesis of a 'politically' created myth of Jesus, it is pleasure to hear two scholars with differing opinions politely and professionally debate each other. Definitely very enlightening!" Deirdre Simone
One clarification: I do concur that Christianity was created significantly for political reasons, but there is no scientific evidence that the canonical gospels were written by any Flavians, whether Josephus or otherwise, as they do not emerge clearly in the historical record until the last half of the second century. The works of Josephus factor into the picture when the author of Luke-Acts apparently uses them in order to flesh out the tale with "real history."
Yes, as one can see, I do not go around smearing and sullying the reputation of other scholars and mythicists with calumny and libel, as others have done to me, mendaciously and dishonestly pretending to be experts on my work without even having read it. One of my goals in doing this work, in fact, is to bring people together in a sense of intellectual exchange, rather than the typical competition that we see so abundantly and that has gotten us nowhere. A fascistic tyranny of Jesus mythers is not an improvement over a fascistic tyranny of Jesus believers.
In this quest to unravel Christian origins, the evidence leads us to factor in the biographical details of many individuals, both historical and mythical. This compilation includes not just one emperor/caesar but several, such as Julius Caesar (100-44 BCE) and Caesar Augustus (63 BCE-14 AD/CE), both of whom were likewise considered to be saviors or "messiahs," the Greek epithet being soter. Many other historical figures such as Ptolemy Soter bore this epithet of "savior" or "messiah," and many gods were likewise called "Savior," such as Dionysus and Serapis. Their "biographical" details must also be included in this analysis, as must be those of Horus, Mithra, Attis, Buddha and numerous other figures, not a few of whom resolve themselves to sun gods.
Decades earlier than the time of emperor Titus, some of the "biographical" details attached to the story of Jesus were circulating about the previous emperors Julius and Augustus Caesar. For example, it was said of both Julius and Augustus that their father was the Greek sun god Apollo, thus giving them a divine birth. The very notion of a caesar implies divinity, as he would be given the Latin epithet divus, a word meaning "divine" or "deified" and "god" or "goddess," "often as epithet for dead and deified emperors." As Dr. J. Dominic Crossan remarks:
"On every coin you have inscriptions of Caesar as divine. In the ancient world, being divine was a job description, meaning somebody who does something very important for the human race."
The mythology surrounding the caesars included their resurrection from death and ascension into heaven, events recorded on the coins of Julius Caesar the year he died, 44 BCE. The coins below depict the goddess Nike or "Victory" instructing the lunar goddess Selene to wake Caesar from his death slumber.
Following is the so-called Priene inscription from announcements of the calendar change based on the birth of Caesar Augustus in 63 BCE, "found on marble stelae in all the Asian temples dedicated to Rome and Augustus":
"Whereas Providence...has...adorned our lives with the highest good: Augustus...and has in her beneficence granted us and those who will come after us [a Savior] who has made war to cease and who shall put everything in [peaceful] order...with the result that the birthday of our God signalled the beginning of Good News for the world because of him... therefore..."
The original Greek here for "Good News" is evangelia, the same term used in the New Testament to describe the "gospel" of Jesus Christ.
The caesar was thus considered the divine "son of God" and "Savior," whose birth brings the "good news" (evangelia), the same name used in the New Testament to describe Jesus's "gospel." Caesar is murdered, resurrects and ascends to heaven - all decades before Jesus supposedly lived and before Titus became emperor.
Adding to these various biographical details of pagan deities and emperors the numerous "messianic prophecies" of the Old Testament used as an outline or "blueprint," we can account for the creation of the savior/gospel tale, which was expanded upon and worked over by the Gnostics and then Judaized/historicized at the end of the second century.
A piece of the puzzle?
As concerns my remarks to Joe Atwill about his piece of the Christianity puzzle, when/if I have time, I may do a detailed analysis of the aspects of the Vespasian/Titus story that may have been utilized to flesh out the historical framework of the gospel tale, such as the placing of it in Galilee, mainly (except for in the Gospel of John), with the focus on the cities of Capernaum, Chorazin, Bethsaida, etc. However, it is possible that some of these city-names are, like much of the rest of the gospel story, midrash based on Old Testament scriptures. This part of the mythicist position still needs to be worked out in detail, as does the role of the Flavians in the Chrestos cult of the late first century, which appears to be the real contribution of this faction to the Christian effort.
In this regard, I have a lengthy article on the Chrestos cult of the first century AD/CE, which appears to have been given a boost by the Flavians during the last quarter of that period. In consideration of Vespasian's visits to the multinational cult center at Mt. Carmel, where he purportedly received the oracle's approval as emperor, and to the temple of Serapis at Alexandria, where he supposedly obtained the gift of healing, we would not be surprised if Vespasian was involved in what would be known as "Christianity." The hypothesis that Vespasian's visit to Mt. Carmel was to discuss the amalgamation of Judaism and Paganism, which had already been achieved there for centuries, may possess some truth. Moreover, it is likewise hypothesized that one of the reasons Titus wanted to take the surrendered Josephus under his wing was in order to obtain the Jewish scriptures, generally forbidden to non-Jews. If all of these contentions are true, it becomes obvious that these Flavians were involved in the early Chrestian effort, which was utilized in the later organization at the end of the second century that eventually became Christianity.
Regarding the overall thesis, therefore, a relatively small percentage of the Titus biography would have been used in the creation of the gospel story, but the Flavians, including Josephus, did not compose the canonical gospels as we have them.
Further Reading
Caesar's Messiah on DVD
On the Ignorance of Ancient Mythology
Jesus as the Sun throughout History
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|2012-10-05 00:31:17 Non-believer in Pennsylvania. - I do not think that there is "bright line" as to w
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|2012-10-12 12:46:51 Acharya SA friend has written the following on Facebook, which prompted me to respond with a fuller critique and statement of perspective.
Quote:John Holmdahl Hi Acharya ... The identical sequence of parallel events between that Roman Emperor's life and Jesus's life is way beyond coincidence! For me, this is solid proof of Joe's hypothesis that trumps anything anyone could say. How else can one explain all those one-to-one correspondences??? Really!!! John
Thanks, John, a few of the biographical details are similar between Vespasian/Titus and Jesus, leading to the notion that the Chrestos movement at the end of the first century may have had to do with the Flavians.
However, the canonical gospels as we have them are full of myths that have nothing to do with Vespasian, Titus or Josephus. When we peel away the "messianic prophecies" or blueprints of Old Testament scriptures used in the NT, as well as the numerous mythical aspects from the "biographies" of other gods and goddesses, there are a few characteristics left that might be based on Josephus's or others' writings about Vespasian/Titus.
That fact does not make the "Caesar's Messiah" thesis to be true. In my estimation, it is not. I make my case as outlined in the paragraph above in my various books and articles over the past 25+ years since I've been studying these subjects in earnest. It's as solid a case as you will find, in my opinion, and does not rely on sketchy puns and the rest.
What it appears happened is that by the end of the second century, the Chrestos movement had been intertwined with the Christos faction, so that would explain the very few "biographical" details that might have come from Vespasian/Titus.
If you would like to know the "whodunnits" of the Christ-myth creation, you will want to read my books, including the various chapters on Alexandria, which is clearly where the Christian effort solidified. The Flavian input by this time was nil, other than this one, fairly small faction.
Here are my books and ebooks:
http://stellarhousepublishing.com/
Here are many articles:
http://truthbeknown.com/christconspiracy.html
The "biography" of Jesus Christ is made mostly of OT scriptures, pagan god attributes and pre-Christian "logia" or sayings. These were worked together for a period of a couple of centuries before Christianity was created. There were many factions involved during that time, not just the Flavians. These others included the Therapeuts, Philo and the Gnostics.
The problem I pointed out to Joe is that he didn't look more closely at the MYTHOLOGY that clearly influenced the Christian effort, so he worked far too hard to find correspondences to Titus, where the proposed correlation is actually from mythology. I said that a few biographical details such as the names of places in Judea and Galilee may have come from these earlier political figures, but that's about it. The rest of the tale comes from MYTHOLOGY and MIDRASH of OT scriptures.
So, the bottom line is that I don't actually agree with the assessment that the lives of the Roman emperor and that of "Jesus Christ" are as similar as is claimed. We must also factor in the "Gospel" of Caesar Augustus's birth, a century before Titus - some of the gospel story is clearly based on HIM as well, including the announcement of "good news" at his miraculous birth, using the very term "evangelion," translated in English as "gospel." Atwill's theory likewise does not factor in the caesars Julius and Augustus, which it should. My view is far more inclusive of the numerous factors well beyond Titus and Josephus that were included in this effort. In order to accept Atwill's theory, I would need to remove about 90% of what I've learned and written about over the past several decades.
Remember that chart we discussed so many years ago? ALL of those "biographical" details of gods side by side with their comparisons to Jesus? that's where this stuff comes from largely, other than a few mundane characteristics, such as where Titus traveled, perhaps. And that's what I told Joe and what he ignored. I'm not about to remove 90% of my knowledge on this subject and toss it out the window when I can clearly SEE what happened here during the first several centuries of the common era.
I should add that I have written reams about these parallels, in detail, as concerns numerous GODS and GODDESS in antiquity, using the extant primary sources to show these correspondences. They have nothing to do with the emperor, except as where he may have taken them and applied them to himself in order to "fulfill prophecy."
One thing that appears to have come from the Vespasian biography is the story of curing a blind man with spittle. However, that "miracle" apparently was a fairly common wandering mendicant trick in antiquity. It would not surprise me, nevertheless, if the gospel writers did take it from Vespasian, as his purported miracle was quite famous. But let us recall that he supposedly derived this power from the Greco-Egyptian hybrid god SERAPIS, who shares more in common with Jesus than does Titus. I cover all of these bases in my books and articles, such as this one:
http://truthbeknown.com/attis.html
In order to make the claim that Atwill's theory "trumps" what I have written, one would need to throw away all of the information in the link above, as well as all the other articles and books by hundreds of mythicists over the past several centuries.
You can find much more of this research also in my forum, which includes actually primary sources in their original languages.
http://freethoughtnation.com/forums
The creation of Christianity occurred over a period of at least two centuries and involved numerous factions, including BUDDHISTS during the second century. Again, the canonical gospels had next to nothing to do with Vespasian, Titus or Josephus, except as the latter's work was used to flesh out "history."
CM all sounds like a nice, neat and sexy theory, but it's incorrect overall, based on all the facts.
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|2012-10-05 17:33:37 Deirdre Simone - Acharya And the Jesus Myth CompetitionFirst, thank you Acharya for including my review of this DVD. Yes, you have always claimed Jesus was created for "political" reasons. What I meant to say was the difference between you and Atwill is that his thesis claims Jesus was created by politically powerful families like the Flavians.
To me, Atwill's thesis, though I will see the film, is yet another of thousands about the historical Jesus, or myth of Jesus--and I am sure there is more to come.
In my opinion, no scholar can even come close to the real facts about the Jesus myth without including your work. Other authors must be blind not to see the parallels in the Jesus myth to Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Buddhist, Hindu and other mythologies, astrotheology, paganism. YOU have made us see this! This is YOUR incomparable contribution to this 2000 year old quest!
Don't give up! Keep carrying on your work, for you have discovered the truth that is inherent in all religions: the worship of Gods began with the worship of the Sun!
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|2012-10-05 21:40:55 Acharya SThanks, Deirdre, for "getting" it and for the encouragement. So long as one other person is interested, I will be hanging in here.
It's frustrating that all this great, juicy information is being widely ignored for bigoted, egotistical and childish reasons. I see myself as a "computer" of sorts when it comes to my field of interest, study and expertise - little different from the brain of scientists in other fields. The data go in, conclusions come out. I factor in as much data as I can and then see the connections and make the conclusions based on as much science and logic as I can find and absorb.
It should be recalled that the world into which Christianity was born - the Roman Empire, for the most part - was highly multicultural and multilingual. People were more knowledgeable about other cultures and languages than they are in many places today. The educated elite could usually function in at least a couple of languages, if not many more. They saw the world more broadly in many important ways, including and especially religion. This more cosmopolitan, multilingual perspective is what I bring to the table. The myopic views we find in pet theories are just that, ignoring the bulk of the data.
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|2012-10-05 21:58:42 Pastor PeteJustin Martyr, The First Apology, XXI (around 150 CE):
"And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; Æsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Cæsar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre?..."
- Of Caesars, Plato and Divine Births
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|2012-10-06 00:26:33 Shane - Where else,Where else can we go from here? Nowhere. Because the present of such wisdom acharya shares is with us presently ! Will she become a myth someday? Maybe. I hope you are smart enough to see that she exemplifies the pursuit of free thought , which we all know is the very enemy of suppressive organizations? No. So much info out now freedom to choose is dangerous. Acharya seems to guide us through such malady with wisdom and grace. Acharya for pres!
- peace
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|2012-10-08 23:05:54 wayne - truth is never negativeI applaud Acharya and her work! She has done so much to expose the biggest lie ever fed to the race of man on this planet.
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|2012-10-12 10:04:43 Skogspilsner - Purchasing the DVD by download, other than Amazon?Hi everyone, this looks like an interview I want to watch!
Amazon offers it as a download to people in USA only...
Do anyone know any other means to buy this interview by download, other than through Amazon?
I'm not really up to owning it as a hard-copy.
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|2012-10-13 01:04:29 AnonymousHere's a work-around to get Amazon videos outside the U.S.:
How To Watch Amazon Instant Video Outside the US
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|2012-10-13 07:06:27 SkogspilsnerThank you!
Too bad it costs money, which unfortunately will have me doubting whether or not to proceed with this step. Pay another company money just so I can pay Amazon money...
All of this and the main figure delivering this information (D. M. Murdock) won't get a single cent from the amazon purchase, right?
Anyway thank you for your help, I'll think about my next move!
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|2012-12-18 23:07:50 Kwame Ajamu - Titus,vespasian/Domitian Father, Son,Holy spiritI think you and Joe Atwill are right. It is clear that the Titus Vespasien Domitian are the holy trinity, Yes there were triple Gods and Goddess all over the ancient world, including Rome, but the reason for the double entendre. Everything is described to fool the regular people and to cleverly alert the patracin class of the day who were informed about the details of the war of 70 ad, by the works of Josephus read side by side with the emerging gospels when they both first emerged, and Josephus' work goes back to the second century like the Gospels. Also who said the 70 ad war and the campaign and all that really went down like JF says, his book was carefully put togather and was really a myth about the Jewish war to say what the Flavians wanted in order to make them {Flavian emperors the trinity} I dont know if Atwill relizes this, but think he is starting too, that just because the Flavians meant for Jc to mimick Titus does not mean that they did not employ the previous Christos myths in manufactoring the story, nor that it wasnt tried before by afore mentioned emperors that you stated in above, but met with various degrees of success but the war with the Jews made this attempt much much more succesful because a vehicle for creating the Christos narrative,{the jewish war presented itself} The fact that the Earliest known Christians were also the first Christians, the fact that the first so-called Pope of Rome was Tituses nepphew, the plain out alagoress in the bible of Joseph of Aramethia and Josephus Bar aramathias.
The paralells between Titus Sparing john and kiling simeon ,Two rebel leaders of 70 ad and the sieon peter and John in the new testament who suffered the very same fates. The paralels with Joshepus asking Titus to take down three men off the cross and two of them dying and one living like JC, just too many paralels to dismiss Atwills theorys.
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|2012-12-21 18:36:52 NoviceI find much of Joe's thesis very compelling. The bare fact that Christianity seems, at it's core the process of Roman syncretization of Judaism, casts tremendous suspicion on the Flavian dynasty. That there are obvious similarities with previous incarnations of the imperial cult and other pagan beliefs does not detract from the Flavian hypothesis, at least to me.
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|2012-12-23 05:20:26 Acharya SThank you. As I write in my post above, a very few characteristics may have been used in the gospel story, but the Flavians had nothing to do with writing the canonical gospels as we have them, except that Josephus may have been used by Luke.
I have also demonstrated that there were other Caesars who preceded the era in question, and their stories evidently were used in the gospel effort as well.
Moreover, as I show in thousands of pages of writings, many of the attributes of the Christ character can be found in other mythologies and religions. When those elements are removed, along with the midrash from many Old Testament verses, there is very little left over.
So, the thesis is not at all as compelling as one would believe, without all the knowledge as outlined above. Indeed, it is as I stated above, which one may wish to read before commenting.
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|2012-12-23 05:22:30 Acharya SThank you, but I don't think you read my article above. I don't concur with Atwill's thesis. Read my post and the comment below.
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|2013-01-09 14:56:09 Lynn Ertell - Societal and cultural context of mythic narrativeSo does Christianity perhaps represent a "liberal" or "enlightened" way for cosmopolitan Greeks and Romans to assimilate the stubbornly separationist and messianic elements of Temple Judaism into the cultural mainstream of the Empire. These "new Jews" (according to Marcion's "New Covenant"
could now dine, mingle and intermarry with the other (pagan) elites of the Empire, in cities like Alexandria, Damascus, Antioch or even Rome itself. And this would also enhance trade and capital flow, tax revenues and (most immediately) co-opt, pacify and dilute the subversive tendencies in Jewish messianism, preserving meekness and order among household slaves especially.
However, I do appreciate hearing contrary views such as the theory that the Romans, after destroying Jerusalem in the year 70, conspired with rabbinical Jews to create Christianity which appeared to pose no threat since its alleged founder was dead and his supposed teachings did not encourage insurrection against the empire.