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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:22 am 
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elbuho1 wrote:
Hi folks, I'm new here, found this forum via a link on Ken Humphreys' Facebook page.

Re contracting by theists - it does sound a bit farfetched to me, but remember that the Templeton prize is £1 million. Maybe he's got his eyes on that prize.

Maybe, it's hard to say. But one way or another Errorman seems awfully motivated to try and quick slam mythicism and paint a picture of it being totally nonsensical, only to back pedal now after the book release.

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The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

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Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:04 am 
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karmachameleon wrote:
Well more or less just not trying to hijack the thread by bringing up Ralph Woodrow, who was rumored to be "gotten to" by Catholics. And reiterating that Ehrman comes from a Fundamentalist background that separates the Bible from the Catholic Church. It can't be done! So I was trying to bring it back into the original topic.

Ok. I guess you have a point about Ehrman. The truth is that you can't very well separate the bible from the Catholic Church.
Quote:
Tat Tvam Asi, I did attend an Adventist Church for two years while looking for the most correct church. Prior to that I was reading Adventist literature for a good 10 years, and ordering all those free little booklets from George Vandeman's "It is Written" TV program. I got to hand it to him, he could spin a good tale. A good speaker who could draw you right in.

You've accomplished quite the feat breaking loose from that, haven't you?

As far as breaking loose from the SDA fold, yeah, quite the feat. I learned way too much about the foundational roots of the faith over the years to ever see it as anything other than the sham that it actually is:


Most of it is wrong, obviously wrong when you look close enough. However they are largely right in their condemnation of Catholicism as a sun worshipping cult.

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:07 am 
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Josephus on the rocks by Earl Doherty

Josephus and Jesus by Paul L. Maier - supporting it as authentic.

Wiki: Historical reliability of the Gospels

Here's a book review by a former preacher and Ehrman fan. Some of the comments are pretty good: Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman, A Book Review by Exist? by Bruce Gerencser

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:56 pm 
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New Blog by Acharya at Freethought Nation: Does Josephus prove a historical Jesus?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:02 am 
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Just copied this quote from Acharya from here:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1073&start=30

Quote:
Quote:
In his "Ancient Astrological Geography and Acts 2:9-11," B. Metzger points out: "One aspect of ancient astrology treats of astrological geography, or the placing of lands and regions of the earth under the dominion of heavenly bodies." He compares the twelve countries of Acts 2:9-11 to the list of countries and lands attributed to the signs of the zodiac in the works of Paulus Alexandrinus and mentions several well-known astrologers who assigned lands or countries to each sign of the zodiac.

It should be noted that "B. Metzger" is Bruce Banning Metzger, a very well-respected Christian scholar, a professor at Princeton Theological Seminary and one of the main editors of the Revised Standard Version of the Bible.



Ehrman studied under Metzger at Princeton and speaks very highly of him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman

Things just keep getting curiouser and curiouser!

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:43 am 
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Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
New Blog by Acharya at Freethought Nation: Does Josephus prove a historical Jesus?

Could use some help responding to some of the hateful and bigoted comments in the blog...

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:11 am 
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There's a new article/blog posted at CNN about Errorman's new book by CNN Writer John Blake entitled, The Jesus debate: Man vs. myth. It would be great if some here would post links to videos, articles, blogs etc. of Acharya's work in the comments area. Plus, John Blake needs to contacted to inform him about Acharya's work.

We always need all the help we can get to 'spread the word' so to speak as we are totally reliant upon word of mouth.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:35 pm 
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Here's a good article that ends with the following comment:

Quote:
The historical Jesus that emerges from Ehrman’s mainstream defense is a purely human, miracle-free Jewish male with a very common name living in first century Palestine, who after an unremarkable youth went on to teach things that many others had taught before; one more apocalyptic preacher, among many others at the time, whose predictions were proven wrong within a generation; one more “troublemaker” crucified like countless others by the Romans after a drive-thru trial during the Pilate administration. Being such, the Jesus that can be reconstructed from history with any certainty is, for all practical purposes, as irrelevant as the mythical one, effectively shrinking the debate on his existence from a grandiose quest with theological implications to an inconsequential and endless exercise in academic hair-splitting.

The same conclusion I made in my rebuttal: To wit, Bart's "historical Jesus" is such a pathetic shell of a man that no self-respecting Christian would ever bow down to him. It's impossible that the early followers of such a boring and minimized individual would have been so fervent.

Quote:
BOOK REVIEW: The incredible shrinking argument
A mainstream scholar defends the historical Jesus
By Roberto Perez-Franco

Did Jesus Exist?

By Bart D. Ehrman

HarperOne

March 2012

Back in November 2009, I reviewed a book by Earl Doherty, Jesus: Neither God nor Man, which discusses at length his theory about the origins of early Christianity without invoking a historical Jesus. After calling Doherty’s theory marginally superior to the predominant view, the atheist philosopher Richard Carrier stated in his review of Doherty’s work that “the tables have turned.” A refutation to Doherty’s theory, Carrier said, would require developing a single, coherent theory in favor of Jesus’ historicity that can explain all the evidence at least as well as Doherty’s. With funding from both atheists and believers, Carrier himself has taken on the question formally, and his work will soon be published in two volumes.

But he’s not the only one who’s been busy after the publication of Doherty’s work. Bart D. Ehrman, a highly respected New Testament scholar, has taken on the challenge of defending the mainstream view on the historical Jesus from the seditious attacks from “mythicists,” new and old. In his new book, Did Jesus Exist?, Ehrman sets out to provide that single, coherent theory in favor of Jesus’ historicity. Which he does, with less than spectacular results.

Ehrman opens his argument by claiming that the question of Jesus’ historicity is all but settled from the start, since to his knowledge no serious scholar — now or in the past — has ever doubted the existence of the historical Jesus. By serious scholar, Ehrman means one holding a PhD (exit Doherty) and currently tenured in the field of New Testament studies (exit Carrier). The only bona fide exception Ehrman allows seems to be Robert Price (The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man, 2003). Ehrman seems to have no problem with the possibility that holding a counter-mainstream view may affect a scholar’s chances for obtaining tenure in the first place.

After calling the idea that Jesus did not exist “a modern myth” made up in the 18th century and with no ancient precedents, Ehrman provides an overview of the fauna of mythicism proponents, from the downright quack to the more scholarly. The quack varieties are ridiculed and quickly brushed aside in a few pages; the more scholarly versions are acknowledged somewhat more seriously, yet outlined only in wide brushstrokes, as preparation for a refutation that seemingly never quite delivers.

Confident of his position, Ehrman lists the evidence we do not have for a historical Jesus: “There is no hard, physical evidence for Jesus … including no archaeological evidence of any kind” (did you hear that, James Tabor?), nor “any writings from Jesus” (not surprising, says Ehrman, since Jesus probably could not write), and no mentions of Jesus from any “Greek or Roman author from the first century.” Ehrman has no problem with this lack of non-Christian references, since the historical Jesus he has in mind should have been invisible to these groups. Trying to “press the issue further,” Ehrman makes what may be an unnecessary blunder: he likens the absence of evidence for Jesus with that for Pontius Pilate, a claim that Carrier has already called an “amateur mistake” in light of the extant evidence for Pilate.

Ehrman’s defence of the historical Jesus boils down to two arguments. The first is that many “independent witnesses” provide support for the teachings and deeds of a historical Jesus. Unfortunately, what Ehrman calls witnesses are not really witnesses, but at best oral traditions — different enough to be considered independent, yet similar enough to be understood as referring to the same man — that served as foundation for the Gospel and other writers several decades later. The strength of this argument lies on the inference that the existence of a physical Jesus could explain why diverse groups of people held such beliefs near the end of the first century. Its weakness is that it explains little that is not explained equally well by Doherty without a historical Jesus.

Ehrman’s second argument is based on Paul’s claim to have met with Peter and James, whom Ehrman describes as Jesus’ closest disciple and biological brother, respectively. Since this meeting happened, Ehrman reasons, it is impossible that a physical Jesus never existed, given that people who do not exist do not have brothers and disciples. But how do we know that the meeting happened? Because Paul says so. The argument is so weak as to be cute. “What I am writing to you, I tell you before God, I am not lying!” said Paul. “When Paul swears he is not lying, I generally believe him,” replies Ehrman. Never mind that doubts have been cast upon Paul’s account, on the light that such a meeting would bolster his own credentials as apostle of the Christ he never met.

As a self-proclaimed “agnostic with atheist leanings,” who nevertheless regards Jesus as “the most important person in the history of the West” (move aside, Aristotle), Ehrman affirms his interest in defending the existence of Jesus stems only from his interest in history. Yet he seems reluctant to extend a similar license to other nonbelievers, as he issues a summary admonition: “Humanists, agnostics, atheists, mythicists, and anyone else who does not advocate belief in Jesus would be better served to stress that the Jesus of history is not the Jesus of modern Christianity than to insist — wrongly and counterproductively — that Jesus never existed.” Putting aside the gross generalization that all varieties of hellbound minds — like yours truly — are out to get Jesus in order to advance some sort of hidden agenda, I agree with Ehrman in what he says next: “Jesus did exist. He simply was not the person that most believers today think he was.”

The historical Jesus that emerges from Ehrman’s mainstream defense is a purely human, miracle-free Jewish male with a very common name living in first century Palestine, who after an unremarkable youth went on to teach things that many others had taught before; one more apocalyptic preacher, among many others at the time, whose predictions were proven wrong within a generation; one more “troublemaker” crucified like countless others by the Romans after a drive-thru trial during the Pilate administration. Being such, the Jesus that can be reconstructed from history with any certainty is, for all practical purposes, as irrelevant as the mythical one, effectively shrinking the debate on his existence from a grandiose quest with theological implications to an inconsequential and endless exercise in academic hair-splitting.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:49 pm 
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Here's another new article about Ehrman's book. I'm waiting for others here to start posting rebuttals - nothing? You can read in it on Google Books.

Quote:
Bart Ehrman’s new portrayal of Jesus is surprisingly sympathetic

For years, nonbelievers rejoiced at the publication of a new book by New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman, relishing the professor’s pugnacious attacks on the cherished beliefs of evangelical Christians.

But in his latest offering, the University of North Carolina historian and author of such provocative titles as “Misquoting Jesus,” ‘’Forged,” and “Jesus Interrupted,” targets the very crowd that formed the bulk of his audience.

In “Did Jesus Exist? The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth,” Ehrman soundly refutes the arguments — sometimes made by atheists, agnostics and humanists — that early storytellers invented Jesus....

About that CNN article -

Quote:
The Jesus debate: Man vs. myth

Timothy Freke was flipping through an old academic book when he came across a religious image that some would call obscene.

It was a drawing of a third-century amulet depicting a naked man nailed to a cross. The man was born of a virgin, preached about being “born again” and had risen from the dead after crucifixion, Freke says.

But the name on the amulet wasn’t Jesus. It was a pseudonym for Osiris-Dionysus, a pagan god in ancient Mediterranean culture. Freke says the amulet was evidence of something that sounds like sacrilege – and some would say it is: that Jesus never existed. He was a myth created by first-century Jews who modeled him after other dying and resurrected pagan gods, says Freke, author of "The Jesus Mysteries: Was the ‘Original Jesus’ a Pagan God?"

“If I said to you that there was no real Good Samaritan, I don’t think anyone would be outraged,” says Freke, one of a group of mythicists who say Jesus never existed. “It’s a teaching story. What we’re saying is that the Jesus story is an allegory. It’s a parable of the spiritual journey.”...

Freke then becomes the target of Ehrman's special treatment. Fortunately, I suppose, I am excluded, as are Doherty and Humphreys. Ehrman's comments regarding dying-and-rising gods are, of course, completely erroneous, relying on the utterly inadequate JZ Smith article. He does not even seem to know about the Greek goddess Persephone, rising out of the underworld to resurrect SPRING. Not to mention all the information about Osiris - AND Horus, as in Diodorus. Ehrman is not a mythologist or a scholar of mythicism, and that fact shows.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:55 pm 
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Good catch, karma. I was just looking at that post again as well. I've got to remember that one!

Even though Metzger clung to his Christian devotion, he was most certainly a learned man and meticulous scholar, better than his pupil has turned out to be. But would Metzger agree with Ehrman's other conclusions, including his nonbelieving evemerism? If not, how dare Bart contradict this great scholar! Since Metzger's a professional scholar - Bart makes much ado about the issue of who is a "scholar" - shouldn't we just blindly accept everything he says? Well, he was a Christian, so that settles it - we must all admit the truth of Christianity now, including Ehrman.

karmachameleon wrote:
Just copied this quote from Acharya from here:

http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums ... 3&start=30

Quote:
Quote:
In his "Ancient Astrological Geography and Acts 2:9-11," B. Metzger points out: "One aspect of ancient astrology treats of astrological geography, or the placing of lands and regions of the earth under the dominion of heavenly bodies." He compares the twelve countries of Acts 2:9-11 to the list of countries and lands attributed to the signs of the zodiac in the works of Paulus Alexandrinus and mentions several well-known astrologers who assigned lands or countries to each sign of the zodiac.

It should be noted that "B. Metzger" is Bruce Banning Metzger, a very well-respected Christian scholar, a professor at Princeton Theological Seminary and one of the main editors of the Revised Standard Version of the Bible.



Ehrman studied under Metzger at Princeton and speaks very highly of him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman

Things just keep getting curiouser and curiouser!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:03 pm 
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I posted a link to the new Josephus blog on the CNN article and now it appears to be gone. It was on page 76 just this morning. I see embedded video posted all over the place, do they have a problem with dropping links?

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:50 am 
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Quote:
Earl Doherty’s Response to Bart Ehrman’s Case Against Mythicism: Introduction

This is the first installment in a comprehensive response by Earl Doherty to Bart Ehrman’s Did Jesus Exist? We plan on publishing one or two installments per week. Upon completion, the full series will be converted to an e-book and made available on Amazon Kindle.

Earl Doherty’s response (title yet to be finalized) will essentially follow Ehrman’s book section by section. In this opening post he covers:

- Anticipation of Ehrman’s book and initial reaction to it
- Procedure in this rebuttal
- Ehrman’s Introduction:
- How did a humble non-divine preacher become God?
- Problems with Ehrman’s answer
- His recent discovery of mythicism and an appeal to authority
- Examining the term “myth” and a “mythical Jesus” in the record
- Calling on experts
- Demonizing agendas

All of Doherty's blogs on this issue will be listed HERE for convenience.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:43 pm 
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I must say Doherty's response is very good. Very good also some of the responders to his article who voice clear concise objections to Bart's theory in a just a couple of sentences.

Bubble, bubble toil and trouble...the pot boils on!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:45 am 
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I haven't finished reading that link, but I just got to the part where Earl mentioned the Ascension of Isaiah. He made some interesting claims about that text I had never perceived before. The last time I read that was a few years ago when I was still Evemerist regarding Jesus.

Reading it again now, I find it interesting, as well as corroborative with what I wrote earlier here about the problem of the Docetics, is that this text seems to further add to the pile of evidence for a mythical as opposed to a historical human Jesus.

I say that because it claims that the masses were blinded to his presence and so they even claimed that Mary never had such a child and though they heard of this alleged Jesus, no one ever seemed to know where he was. Only a select few actually had their eyes opened and by special revelation could actually see Jesus.

This, to me, is transparent in its objective to do damage control. If in fact there was no real historical human Jesus, then it only makes sense that the people could not see him and even claimed that Mary never had such a child. They would have said such a thing because it was true.

This text is trying to explain away the non-existence of a human Jesus and the fact that there were no reliable witnesses to his life on earth by simply claiming that the masses were not special enough to see him.
'Oh, no, it's not that he didn't exist, you see, it's just that he wasn't really human and so you didn't have the magic eyes needed to see him.'

This to me seems analogous to the apologetic given by adults to little kids that the reason they never see the real Santa is because "he sees you when you're sleeping, he knows when you're awake".
Santa is definitely real and definitely comes to your house to give you toys, you just never see him because he only comes in when you are asleep.

And the Ascension of Isaiah is typically dated to the mid 2nd century CE. So if even that early on it was already necessary to produce such a transparent damage control against the fact that Jesus had no earthly existence as a flesh & blood human being, then clearly the evidence for a historical Jesus was not as decisive as folks like Ehrman would have us think.


The Ascension of Isaiah, Ch. 11 wrote:
10.And when her husband Joseph said unto her: "What has astonished thee?" his eyes were opened and he saw the infant and praised God, because into his portion God had come.

11. And a voice came to them: "Tell this vision to no one."
...
14. And many said: "She has not borne a child, nor has a midwife gone up (to her), nor have we heard the cries of (labour) pains." And they were all blinded respecting Him and they all knew regarding Him, though they knew not whence He was.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:27 am 
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Here is a comment I have just posted in response to Earl

Earl, thank you for taking on this work to rebut Ehrman. I am sure the truth will out and the myth of Christ will be exposed as the greatest deceit in history.

Ehrman’s emotional tirade against Acharya S is disturbing in terms of the impression it gives that his approach is unbalanced and superficial. His ignorant swipe regarding Osiris – as it has been reported - is unbelievable unless he deliberately wants his apologetic argument to look clownish. It is more similar to a vile ancient polemic like Against Heresies by Bishop Irenaeus of Lyon than a piece of scholarly argument. There are clearly some strange subconscious ‘agendas’ inspiring Ehrman, to use his own term which you rightly question. It looks like a psychological projection on his part.

I was surprised by your statement that “An adequate preparation for mythicist writers needs to be a working knowledge of Greek and Latin.” Surely the evidence for and against the historical existence of Jesus Christ can be understood in English translation? Certainly, the debate needs to draw on scholarship in ancient languages, but those with this expertise can readily share their findings with others, as you have done.

The Christ Myth Theory is a multidisciplinary problem, touching on philosophy, psychology, politics and theology, even cosmology, as much as New Testament history or language. No one can possibly be an expert in all the required subjects, but it is possible for a broad interdisciplinary approach to draw from relevant experts. A trained historian faces risks of allowing narrow assumptions to distort their perspective, especially when they allow credentialism to become a form of bigotry that closes off dialogue with other relevant subject areas.

I have found my own academic study, including an MA Honours philosophy degree in existential ontology and ethics, extremely helpful to enable me to assess the debates, especially in looking for presuppositions in arguments, seeing how people take a wholistic or narrow specialised approach, and comparing this whole debate to the structure of scientific revolutions described by TS Kuhn in his paradigm theory. Ontology is not well understood or recognised, although I would argue it is indispensable to engage with Christology in any meaningful way.

These are big questions. Confining them to an absurd small-minded polemic as Ehrman has done is a sign of a desperate collapsing paradigm. Asking about the meaning of being seems useless, except that it establishes sound methodology regarding the status of evidence for existence.

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