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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:58 pm 
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Voice of Reason wrote:
Hey guy's ChelevSaRa got his video series pulled because he featured some of the TTC videos in there.

That is unfortunate, his 6-part video series titled, The Mythosphere" was really good. Who at The Teaching Company was complaining and why? The TC could've chosen to see the videos as free advertising instead.

Did ChelevSaRa have a back up? It would've been helpful to have a transcript with citations posted in an article or blog. He can up-load the videos somewhere else like facebook, wordpress or liveleak. Maybe he should create such accounts as back ups anyway.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:17 am 
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Another 'smoking gun' proving the Bible a myth?

"New evidence that the biblical tale of Moses was neither historical nor written by him, as is widely believed, comes in the form of a small tablet found in northern Israel at the site of Hazor. This tablet dating to the 17th-18th centuries BCE and written in Akkadian appears to be similar to the famous Code of Hammurabi... "

read more here

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:50 pm 
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I happened across this informative video which has been put up on the home page at the Joseph Campbell Foundation since I last visited. So people are being introduced to the origins of astrotheology as they find the site. I went ahead and posted an informative thread on the MP and the new ZG part 1 companion guide as well. Hopefully it will spark interest there among fellow comparative mythology and religion enthusiasts: http://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4432

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:26 pm 
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Enjoy this brand new article hot off the press by Acharya:

Quote:
Were George Washington and Thomas Jefferson Jesus Mythicists?

"Did the American Founding Fathers study the case for Jesus Christ being a mythical figure? There is much evidence that Washington and Jefferson, among other famous and important figures of the day, were influenced by well-known French mythographers and "Jesus mythicists," such as Dupuis and Volney."

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:06 pm 
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Jesus mythicists featured in Greek magazine

"December 23, 2010, a Greek magazine, Phainomena, is running a new article by Minas Papageorgiou about Jesus mythicism that features D.M. Murdock, aka Acharya S. An accompanying TV commercial asks, "Who are the people who doubt Jesus's historicity?"

Here is the commercial


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:53 am 
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Here's a neat and succinct paragraph describing the differences and commonalities between evemerism and mythicism.

Evemerism constitutes the thesis that various figures in antiquity with supernatural attributes represented real people, to whose mundane biographies were added fabulous and mythical motifs. Evemerism therefore sees more than one figure involved; indeed, it posits a compilation of characters, some real, some mythical, to end up with a fictional or fictionalized character. Mythicism posits the same thing, except that it doesn’t contend there is one “real” figure underlying all the mythical motifs piled on top. In other words, when the mythical and legendary layers of the onion are peeled, there’s no historical core.

While there certainly were "real people" who said the things attributed to Jesus - pre-Christian wisdom sayings that can be found in a variety of texts and cultures - and the general route he is depicted as taking appears to mimic that of the Emperor Titus, this compilation of various characters, real and mythical, is himself not a "real person."

Let us look at another example: According to mainstream tradition, the fictional and mythical figure of "Santa Claus" was based on a "saint" from the fourth century, St. Nicholas. Although there is some debate as to whether or not that legend is true, there is no way we can argue that, therefore, the figure of Santa Claus is a "real person." He is clearly not, and even if we clarify that we are talking about a supposedly historical St. Nicholas, the two figures are not the same "real person."

Ditto with the story of Gulliver: Gulliver's Travels is located in England, among other places, giving it a historical setting. I have little doubt that its author, Jonathan Swift, based much of Gulliver on real people. However, Gulliver is not a real person whose story can be picked apart to reveal a "historical" core.

Gulliver is a fictional character, as is the "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:18 am 
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A good comparison is with King David. Israel Finkelstein, in The Bible Unearthed, notes that the 'house of David' is mentioned in independent sources. So, while Finkelstein was initially skeptical that David ever lived, he accepted the evidence as suggesting there was a King David in Judea. However, the archaeological record shows that the Bible story of an empire from the Egyptian border to the Euphrates is pure myth, a fictional piece of propaganda devised for King Josiah in the 7th century BC. Therefore, the Biblical account of David is evemerist, a fictional embroidery on a real historical seed.

The question of Christ is far more complicated. Carl Jung, in Answer to Job, says the primary identity of Christ is as eternal cosmic savior, while the supposed Jesus of history is practically irrelevant to the core themes of the religious imagination. Of course the historical story became central with the doctrine of incarnation, but Jung's point is that it was 'the eternal Son', a purely mythic identity, who gave the supposed historical story its impact.

It appears most probable that the story of the historical Christ was composed in the second century AD for political motives. As such, the authors must have drawn on whatever historical anecdotes would make their tale more plausible. Their primary vision was of a cosmic Christ, and to make this resonate with mass opinion they invented the story of the incarnation. Subsequently the incarnation story took over from the cosmic story as the primary message in the popular mind. The incarnation story may have a single primary historical source in events, but this is most unlikely. The stories of the birth, miracles and passion of Christ are purely mythical. Perhaps a messianic leader brought together many of the moral stories, but this is just a small part of the identity of the myth. The embroidery would have started at two opposite ends, the cosmic Christ and the supposed historic individual, in a meeting in the Gospel vision that is purely fictional and imaginary.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:54 am 
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And still with the "house of David", it's very late and there's nothing from the contemporary period from an historical David. No letters between David and other Kings and rulers, nothing. Meanwhile there were letters going between Kings and rulers of the region that have survived from the supposed contemporary time period, but, nothing from any David.

And also there's the factor of the Davidum God and the house of David simply being a reference to the priesthood of Davidum. Most archaeologists have settled with this scant late evidence as proof of an historical David but I remain skeptical at this point. I want to see something more convincing than that before I'm convinced of his historicity.

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:25 pm 
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Yes, that's right. There's a mention of a "Daud" in the Ebla tablets, referring to a god. It is likely that the "house of David" refers to an older tribal god.

Tat Tvam Asi wrote:
And still with the "house of David", it's very late and there's nothing from the contemporary period from an historical David. No letters between David and other Kings and rulers, nothing. Meanwhile there were letters going between Kings and rulers of the region that have survived from the supposed contemporary time period, but, nothing from any David.

And also there's the factor of the Davidum God and the house of David simply being a reference to the priesthood of Davidum. Most archaeologists have settled with this scant late evidence as proof of an historical David but I remain skeptical at this point. I want to see something more convincing than that before I'm convinced of his historicity.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:09 am 
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Acharya wrote:
It is likely that the "house of David" refers to an older tribal god.
I'm sure you are right. Finkelstein tries to be as charitable to the faith story as the evidence will allow. It was probably politic for him to suggest the flimsy single extant reference to the house of David from outside the bible was sufficient to read the Biblical account as evemerist rather than invention.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:40 am 
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Thanks Acharya.

And Robert I agree that Finkelstein is trying to give as much credit as he can to the bible for the sake of the public. What's interesting is that even so, very little of it can be given. He'll say that there was probably a King David but then firmly hold ground when it comes to the extent of the Kingdom. Archaeology will not allow that much credit to the story of course. I really appreciate the fact that some one like Finkelstein has come along and taken a stand like this. And I'm sure that taken aside privately he'd probably admit to the "House of David" reference as flimsy in trying to establish any absolute historical existence. It would be interesting to try and strike up an email with him to see what he says.

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:31 am 
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Quote:
Were George Washington and Thomas Jefferson Jesus Mythicists?

"Did the American Founding Fathers study the case for Jesus Christ being a mythical figure? There is much evidence that Washington and Jefferson, among other famous and important figures of the day, were influenced by well-known French mythographers and "Jesus mythicists," such as Dupuis and Volney."


I would have some disagreement especially about Jefferson being a jesus mythicists. Jefferson was by all intents and purposes a Deists. His rewritten New Testament called "The Jefferson Bible" was an adaptation of the NT. Jefferson did not believe in the miracles that this jesus performed and thus cut and pasted his own version of the NT. Washington's role as a jesus mythicists could be questionable as well. Washington was not an avid church goer and often times he would drop Martha off at church and return home. Washington in a sense was Deists as well but never really expressed his religious belief I don't think.

Quote:
Washington gives us little in his writings to indicate his personal religious beliefs. As noted by Franklin Steiner in "The Religious Beliefs Of Our Presidents" (1936), Washington commented on sermons only twice. In his writings, he never referred to "Jesus Christ." He attended church rarely, and did not take communion - though Martha did, requiring the family carriage to return back to the church to get her later.


Quote:
Washington was not anti-religion. Washington was not uninterested in religion.


Quote:
He was complimentary to all groups and attended Quaker, German Reformed, and Roman Catholic services. In a world where religious differences often led to war, Washington was quite conscious of religious prejudice. However, he joked about it rather than exacerbated it. Washington once noted that he was unlikely to be affected by the German Reformed service he attended, because he did not understand a word of what was spoken.


http://www.virginiaplaces.org/religion/religiongw.html

Jefferson though he had some religious belief wrote in Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli the following:

Quote:
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.


Classifying any of the founders as JM's would be a hard stretch. There is one person, though not a founding father that was instrumental in the Deism movement and that was Thomas Paine. Paine was a defunct British Army officer that was about to be strung up until Ben Franklin intervened and got him to the US. Paines book "Age of Reason" is one that every one needs to read. In it he slices and dices the NT and OT to pieces. If anyone would have even a trace of JM it would be him but even thats a stretch.

Deism played a major role in shaping the thinking of a lot of the major players such as Franklin, Adams, Jefferson and most likely Washington.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:40 pm 
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It doesn't sound like you have read my article from which that quote emanates and which demonstrates that Jefferson was so involved with a major Jesus mythicist (Volney) that he even translated his work into English.

You might enjoy reading the lengthy article here:

Did George Washington and Thomas Jefferson Believe Jesus Was a Myth?

There is some very fascinating information there.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:53 pm 
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Star Burst, you'll need to keep in mind that deism and the mythicist position are not mutually exclusive. One can be both at the same time. Deism was quite popular at the time of the founding fathers during the 'age of enlightenment,' while there existed no clear succinct mythicist position until 2 years ago when Acharya S created the mythicist position.

Deism is simply the belief that a god may have created the universe but then abandoned it thus, leaving behind no credible evidence. Deists, such as the founding fathers, didn't except religious authority or holy books. Just because they discussed religion doesn't mean they weren't mythicists.

Jefferson shared no religious belief in Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli at all. He merely stated that: "the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

Quote:
Classifying any of the founders as JM's would be a hard stretch

No, it really isn't when you learn all the facts included in the article:

"Washington even was glad to have Volney as his guest at Mount Vernon, and Jefferson occupied his Sundays at Montecello in writing letters to Paine..., in favour of the probabilities that Christ and his twelve apostles were only personifications of the sun and the twelve signs of the zodiac."

"...the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
- Thomas Jefferson, The Adams-Jefferson Letters (594)

"The fable of Christ and his twelve apostles...is a parody of the sun and the twelve signs of the Zodiac, copied from the ancient religions of the Eastern world.... Every thing told of Christ has reference to the sun. His reported resurrection is at sunrise, and that on the first day of the week; that is, on the day anciently dedicated to the sun, and from thence called Sunday..."
- Thomas Paine, The Complete Religious and Theological Works of Thomas Paine (382)

"Lighthouses are more useful than churches"
- Benjamin Franklin

"This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it!"
- John Adams

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man"
- Thomas Jefferson

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The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:59 pm 
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Here's a new thread over at Booktalk.

Christ in Egypt: The Mythicist Position

Thanks Robert! 8)

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Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
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