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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:47 pm 
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This is intriguing. Just make sure to avoid the attacks and stick to the facts.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:51 pm 
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Leroy wrote:
This is intriguing. Just make sure to avoid the attacks and stick to the facts.


Yes SIR! :P

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:40 pm 
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acharya wrote:
What does it say of Christianity when these types are its self-appointed representatives? Truly, the ideology is imbalanced and deranged, as reflected by its arrogant, megalomaniacal and crazed adherents. (Perhaps the megalomaniacal "JP Holding" is not a real person but a publicity stunt for the Christ mythicists! I have read so many absurd and inaccurate statements of his I am beginning to wonder if he's a joke, hired by some millionaire philanthropist out to destroy Christianity by making its representatives look idiotic. Not that they need any help. It should be noted that the word "tektonics," the domain name of Holding's site, comes from the Greek word "tekton," which in modern Greek, per the Collins Modern Greek-English Dictionary means "freemason.")

http://www.truthbeknown.com/holding.htm


Are you a joke brought on by the Freemasons to make Christianity look absurd JP? :lol:

If you are, then I get it.

Good one. :D

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The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

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Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:53 pm 
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Leroy wrote:
This is intriguing. Just make sure to avoid the attacks and stick to the facts.


Welcome Leroy, the fact here is that even the early Christian Fathers knew good and well that the Christ myth resembled the older Hero myths before it and specifically came up with the idea of a Devil coming along before Christ to mimic his prophecy in advance to the actual Christ arriving. I heard that from the time I was young. The Buddha, Krishna, and all of the pre-Christian myths were suggested to be tricks of the Devil trying to fool people with Christ-like stories in advance. That argument is too well known throughout Christianity to start trying to deny now this late in the game. Sorry JP, it just doesn't wash.

That's why the jokes so funny, I'm sure there's someone behind the scene getting a real good laugh out of this whole thing. :wink:

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:29 pm 
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Here's a debate between Gary Habermas and Ken Humphreys

A two-hour video debate on the historicity the resurrection
http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2008 ... ction.html

:wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:28 pm 
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The Egyptian Resurrection

Fortunately, we have had some erudite and insightful individuals in the past who were far closer to the reality of the Egyptian religion than those who have merely scanned a few encyclopedia articles and then presented themselves as "experts."

Egyptologist Sir Dr. E.A. Wallis Budge worked for many years in the Egyptian Department at the British Museum and published a massive amount of information about ancient Egypt, its customs, religion and language, etc. I have been studying Budge's voluminous works - as well as the many works of more modern Egyptologists, in both books and journals numbering well over 700 - and I have not found anything egregious about Budge's work in comparison to these others. In fact, Budge is clearly one of the more insightful and able expositors on the Egyptian religion in particular. There are, of course, differences between the scholarship of today and that of Budge's time, which was nevertheless within the past several decades. The transliterations of Egyptian words have changed, as have the dates for various kings/pharaohs. Naturally, it is perfectly valid to correct such "errors," but much of the criticism turns out to be unwarranted.

Indeed, the only thing that has changed with the Egyptian religion is that the perception today dismisses, denies and omits this massive amount of information coming from Budge, without good reason and with extreme and irrational prejudice. Why has this renowned and esteemed Egyptologist, whose Egyptian Book of the Dead is one of the most popular books of all time, fallen out of favor?

Was it because Budge was so terribly wrong about so many things? Not according to my research, as I demonstrate thoroughly in Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection.

Could it be because he readily and easily saw many germane parallels between the Egyptian religion and Christianity? Indeed, Budge said that a comparison between the two faiths would fill a large volume - about that I can attest, as my book creeps up to the 600-page mark. Moreover, sincere Christian Budge was so impressed by the correlations between the Egyptian religion and Christianity that he declared the latter to be a fulfillment of the former!

We can readily see why the detractors would wish to bury quite honorable work with their calumny concerning his scholarship - this sort of disparagement is a typical tactic of the apologist cultus.

In any case, despite the libelous contentions regarding his scholarship, Budge had one of the better grasps of the Egyptian religion and spirituality, and he was able to explain and express it in an eloquent manner.

As one example, Budge succinctly and beautifully relates the spiritual gist of the Egyptian religion in his rendition of two ancient Egyptian hymns:

Quote:
Thy essence is in heaven, thy body to earth. (VIth dynasty.)
Heaven hath thy soul, earth hath thy body. (Ptolemaic period.)

Here he is showing how long a period this doctrine spanned, from the 6th Dynasty all the way to the Ptolemaic era. Indeed, the Egyptian religion did not succumb to the violent overthrow by Christianity until the fourth century, with the murder of the last Egyptian priests. Murder, mayhem - these are the cause of Christianity's spread.

In any case, Budge also says:

Quote:
...The never ending existence of the soul is asserted in a passage quoted above without reference to Osiris; but the frequent mention of the uniting of his bones, and of the gathering together of his members, and the doing away with all the corruption from his body, seems to show that the pious Egyptian connected these things with the resurrection of his own body in some form, and he argued that what had been done for him who was proclaimed to be giver and source of life must be necessary for mortal man.

Summing up the main reality of the Egyptian religion, Budge further remarks:

Quote:
...we find that the doctrine of eternal life and of the resurrection of a glorified or transformed body, based upon the ancient story of the resurrection of Osiris after a cruel death and horrible mutilation, inflicted by the powers of evil, was the same in all periods, and that the legends of the most ancient times were accepted without material alteration or addition in the texts of the later dynasties.

The story of Osiris is nowhere found in a connected form in Egyptian literature, but everywhere, and in texts of all periods, the life, sufferings, death and resurrection of Osiris are accepted as facts universally admitted.

Budge, EBD, xlviii-xlix.

As we can abundantly see, the promise of the glorious resurrection based on the death and resurrection of the god was the main thrust of the Egyptian religion and was eventually available to all worshippers of the Egyptian faith, as reflected in numerous ancient texts. These worshippers have been estimated to number at least a half a billion over the millennia during which the Egyptian religion was followed.

To reiterate, the deceased were so closely united with Osiris - Lord of Resurrections and the Netherworld - that they were called "the Osiris," "the Osiris NN" or just "Osiris." That would mean there were hundreds of millions of Osirises resurrecting from the dead.

Budge further describes the Egyptian beliefs:

Quote:
...the whole man consisted of a natural body, a spiritual body, a heart, a double, a soul, a shadow, an intangible ethereal casing or spirit, a form, and a name. All these were, however, bound together inseparably, and the welfare of any single one of them concerned the welfare of all. For the well-being of the spiritual parts it was necessary to preserve from decay the natural body; and certain passages in the pyramid texts seem to show that a belief in the resurrection of the natural body existed in the earliest dynasties.

Budge, EBD, lxix-lxx.

It seems that Budge is referring to Pyramid Texts (T 228) such as the following, as rendered by Dr. James P. Allen:

Quote:
Flesh of this Teti, don't decay, don't rot, don't let your scent be bad!...

Your bones will not perish, your flesh will not pass away, Teti; your limbs will not be away from you, for you are one of the gods.

Allen, AEPT, 86-87.

"Teti" is the name of the subject of the Pyramid Text, the pharaoh/king. The deceased in these texts is "the Osiris."

More of the same appears at P 319b and P 528:

Quote:
This Pepi has become sound with his flesh.

Pepi is sound, his flesh is sound; Pepi is sound, his clothing is sound. He has gone up to the sky...

Allen, AEPT, 125, 188.

We also find the following at P 47:

Quote:
Ho, Pepi! Stand up!...

Ho, Pepi! Live...

Allen, AEPT, 109.

Pepi is also a deceased king, becoming the Osiris, who is to stand up and live! It is logical for someone to try to raise a dead person by saying, "Stand up!", and this phrase is used repeatedly throughout the funerary/mortuary texts, which are specifically designed for this resurrection.

And then there's this little gem at Nt 249:

Quote:
ADDRESS TO THE RESURRECTED SPIRIT

Ho, Neith! Raise yourself on your metal bones and your golden limbs. This body of yours belongs to a god; it cannot moulder, it cannot end, it cannot decay....

Your flesh has been born to life, and you shall live more than the stars.

Allen, AEPT, 327.

Note the word "RESURRECTED" in the original Egyptian title of this spell.

It is unquestionable that long before the common era ancient man saw death as something to overcome and conquer, allowing him to rise again or resurrect - that belief, in fact, has been at the basis of much religious and spiritual conceptualization. In fact, such a belief constitutes the basis for spirituality - and the Egyptian religion was highly spiritual. Moreover, it would appear that human beings early on hoped to be resurrected in their physical or "natural" bodies, as is a natural desire - even a small child will cry over a lost pet and wish that it would come back to life. These earliest texts indicate this desire, as well as the graduation to the inescapable fact that the flesh will not really be restored; hence, a glorified body can be fantasized instead.

This glorified body is little different from that which is proposed in the later Christianity, which many if not most Christians are banking on with their beliefs:

Quote:
There are celestial bodies and there are terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

1 Corinthians 15:40

It is obvious that Christianity cannot realistically promise the resurrection of the physical body, as observers undoubtedly would have noticed that their sincerely believing friends and family members were nevertheless rotting in the ground, despite all the empty promises - an observation that undoubtedly led the early Egyptians likewise to promise an esoteric, glorified body as well.

And the point is still made that Christianity is a mythical rehash largely based on the Egyptian religion.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:23 am 
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Bast

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Acharya,

does Budge give any primary sources B.C. (or BM =before myth, according to you) of Osiris bodily resurrection?

It's interesting that Christ's life actually dated history. We are currently in A.D. (Anno domini) = year of our Lord. Not year of our myth.

Amazing that no myth ever won this kind of status and honor to make the world's calendar.


Also,

I was wondering if you've ever read "C.S. Lewis' essay "MYTH BECAME FACT"? He argues that Christ's life and the Gospel's do not fit the same kind of genre of mythology. If anyone knew, it was Lewis, being a professor of mythology at Oxford. He was highly qualified to know what was myth and what was history. I think you can read this essay free online.

You need to also read T.N.D. Mettinger's recent "RIDDLE OF RESURRECTION." He's not a Christian and he refutes the kind of claims you are making. He also states in this book that most scholars today do not believe in any pre-Christian dying and rising god's.

I also recommend "THE GOSPEL AND THE GREEKS," by Ronald Nash. He also refutes the pagan-parallel claims.

Even if there were somewhat parallels in certain aspects, it doesn't disprove Christianity. God fertilized the ground, so to speak, of the pagan world to receive the seeds of Christianity. God was preparing the world for the coming of Christ. Myth actually did become fact. Mythology had its purpose. It existed in a state of pregnancy; it just never gave birth. Mythology was in a sense divine echo's or foreshadows about that (Him) who was to become incarnate in history.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:26 am 
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Bast

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Tat,

all Church Fathers believed in the historcal Christ.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:46 am 
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GreekOrthodoxy wrote:
Tat,

all Church Fathers believed in the historcal Christ.


Some scholars suggest that Paul was referring to an early gnostic deity. Some scholars suggest that Paul was actually a take on the name Apollonius:

Quote:
As can be seen, there are many important details that correspond between the lives of all three men. In some ways, of course, one or the other of the godmen was superior in his capacities, such as the claim about Apollonius being able to speak and understand "all languages" without having studied or learned them.

In an interesting development, Apollonius and Paul's journeys took a very similar route, though generally in reverse of each other. In fact, it has been calculated that Paul and Apollonius were at both Ephesus and Rome at precisely the same time. It would be very odd if two such similar and powerful men, preaching to religious communities in these places, were unknown to each other. Unless, of course, they were each other. Oddly enough, the book of Acts mentions an "Apollos" at Ephesus with Paul, the name "Apollos" being an abbreviation of "Apollonius." In any event, encompassing various brotherhood and mystery school sites, the route taken by both Apollonius and Paul was also more or less that of Orpheus, a mythical proselytizer of the religion of Dionysus, whose epithet was said to have been IES, centuries before the Christian era. Many others doubtlessly also made this pilgrimage to these pre-Christian sacred sites and mystery schools over the centuries.

Not only are the journeys of Paul and Apollonius very similar, their names are as well. While Paul is "Paulos" in Greek, Thayer's Lexicon states that "Apollos" is, according to some ancient authorities, contracted from "Apollonios." Interestingly, "Apollos" is mentioned in five places in Paul's 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, in such a way - juxtapositioned with the names of Paul, "Cephas" and Christ; Paul and Christ; or Paul alone - as to attribute great significance to him. It has further been asserted that this contraction of the name Apollonius, Apollos, was found uncontracted in the Codex Bezae of the New Testament.

Moreover, the name "Apollonius," it has been evinced, was also abbreviated in ancient times as "Pol," but this writer has not been able to confirm that claim. It has further been asserted that the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews was not "Paulos" but "Apollos," an interesting claim in consideration of the fact that Hebrews is written in "Hebraistic Greek" and that Apollonius was said to be a native speaker of the Hebraistic language of Aramaic. Oddly, Hebrews was one of the three epistles that were missing in the first New Testament compiled by Marcion. Furthermore, there are various "Pauline" writings that appeared after the alleged death of Paul, during the period when Apollonius was said to be still alive.

If the story of Apollonius was as well known in more or less detail as presented by Philostratus in the century proceeding that writer, i.e., the second century, with aristocracy admiring Apollonius to the point of worship, the gospel tale must be regarded as an obvious attempt at competition. In this scenario, fervent monotheists who believed it was their destiny to achieve religious hegemony set about to outdo the Capadoccian sage and, via their own usurping godman, prove themselves the spiritual leaders of mankind.


http://www.truthbeknown.com/apollonius.html

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:59 pm 
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Who's this "some" you're talking about. I am familair with the Church Fathers. Give me primary sources in Greek, Latin, Coptic, Armenian or Syriac supporting your statement. Heck, I'll even take a secondary source in English. Saint Paul actually argued against a Gnostic concept of Christ. Paul taught Christ was God. It's kind of difficult for a myth to be God.

Apollonius' life was written 100 years after his death.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:21 pm 
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GreekOrthodoxy wrote:
It's kind of difficult for a myth to be God.


Is this a joke?

A mythology is not a fact of history and it is not a lie either. It's metaphorical.

God (X) is a metaphor / myth. I went over this with you already. A is to be B as C is to (X) - the transcedent...

http://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3651

Quote:
Rev. Robert Taylor, The Diegesis. Rev. Taylor was an English clergyman widely known for his "heretical" sermons, which he began to deliver after discovering, through a superior classical education, that Christ was a mythological character. He was twice imprisoned in England in the 1820's for "blasphemy." Taylor was one of the early "freethinkers," although he maintained he was a "Deist," and, therefore, not an atheist. Taylor suffered tremendous persecution for his stance, yet from his prison cell, he composed The Diegesis, a remarkable and scholarly dissertation of the highest quality.


Quote:
"Those who denied the humanity of Christ were the 'first class' of professing Christians, and not only first in order of time, but in dignity of character, in intelligence, and in moral influence." (Taylor) While those who held onto the millennia-old gnostic Mythos of Christ preceded the carnalizers, or sarkolaters (those who made Christ into flesh), having long-established rituals and doctrines, it was they who were accused of being heretics by their younger, ignorant, carnalizing cousins, who were in reality the true heretics. Taylor: "The deniers of the humanity of Christ, or, in a word, professing Christians, who denied that any such man as Jesus Christ ever existed at all, but who took the name Jesus Christ to signify only an abstraction, or prosopopæia, the principle of Reason personified; and who understood the whole gospel story to be a sublime allegory ...these were the first, and (it is not dishonour to Christianity to pronounce them) the best and most rational Christians."

http://www.truthbeknown.com/footnote.htm

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:48 pm 
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Bast

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Tat,

Paul taught an historical Christ who was God. Something that is God is by definition real, infinite, and necessary -- He cannot NOT be.

Only God can be infinite. A myth is finite. So a myth cannot be God.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:00 pm 
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Thor

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What dictionary are YOU using?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:11 pm 
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Good point Leroy ...

* Myth - "a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, esp. one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature."

"A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society"

"Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale. Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud, "Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]"

"A story of great but unknown age which originally embodied a belief regarding some fact or phenomenon of experience, and in which often the forces of nature and of the soul are personified; an ancient legend of a god, a hero, the origin of a race, etc.; a wonder story of prehistoric origin; a popular fable which is, or has been, received as historical."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/myth

"a myth is a sacred story concerning the origins of the world or how the world and the creatures in it came to be in their present form. The active beings in myths are generally gods and heroes. Myths often are said to take place before recorded history begins. In saying that a myth is a sacred narrative, what is meant is that a myth is believed to be true by people who attach religious or spiritual significance to it. Use of the term by scholars does not imply that the narrative is either true or false."
http://www.reference.com/search?q=myth

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:22 pm 
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GreekOrthodoxy wrote:
Tat,

Paul taught an historical Christ who was God. Something that is God is by definition real, infinite, and necessary -- He cannot NOT be.

Only God can be infinite. A myth is finite. So a myth cannot be God.


Paul didn't exist. Just another character in an ongoing myth in support of the messianic cults. Literally, it's a house of cards built on sand.

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