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Acharya
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:49 am 
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That's a great find. Yes, it appears that Photius had a copy of "Josippos," not Josephus, in which the TF was missing, and that Vossius was commenting on that text.

I've got a couple hundred pages on this subject, which is extremely tedious and complicated. As stated above, I intend to make it into a short monograph.

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Freethinkaluva22
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:00 am 
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Josephus on the rocks by Earl Doherty

Josephus and Jesus by Paul L. Maier - supporting it as authentic.

Wiki: Historical reliability of the Gospels

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Freethinkaluva22
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:56 pm 
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New Blog by Acharya at Freethought Nation: Does Josephus prove a historical Jesus?

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Freethinkaluva22
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:24 am 
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Earl Doherty on Josephus in response to Bart Ehrman's book DJE:

Part 6 What Did Jews Have to Say?

Part 20 The Brother of the Lord

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Tellurian
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:31 pm 
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Acharya

I agree with your conclusion the whole TF was added a couple hundred years after Josephus had died. You gave some very good reasons why that conclusion is the most reasonable.

Ehrman (59-60) provides a translation of the TF from "the best manuscript of Josephus":

At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one should call him a man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and among many of Greek origin. He was the messiah. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. For he appeared to them on the third day, living again, just as the divine prophets had spoken of these and countless other wondrous things about him. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians, named after him, has not died out. (Antiquities 18.3.3)

In one part you compared the word Christians (the anointed) with the word Chrestians (the good). If we pretend the TF did come from the first century, would the word Chrestian then refer to the Isu Chrestos in Marcion's Euangelion gospel? If it did,that would mean the story of Isu Chrestos, the saviour son of the "good" god, existed in the first century, and Josephus was familiar with the Gnostic story. That would be an indication that Josephus possibly created Marcion's gospel and how the stories in it (and also the stories in the biblical gospels) could be based on his knowledge of Jewish history, and his personal experiences in the Galilee. It would be a better fit if the sentence "He was the messiah" instead said "He was the son of god". Of course, this whole supposition is a very big IF.

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Freethinkaluva22
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:38 am 
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Quote:
"...there are very few sources for knowledge of the historical Jesus beyond the four canonical Gospels. Paul and Josephus offer little more than tidbits. Claims that later apocryphal Gospels and the Nag Hammadi material supply independent and reliable historical information about Jesus are largely fantasy. In the end, the historian is left with the difficult task of sifting through the Four Gospels for historical tradition."

John P. Meier

- Who Was Jesus? 86

* Dr. Meier is a Catholic University New Testament professor, ex-Catholic priest and monsignor

Quote:
"The only definite account of his life and teachings is contained in the four Gospels of the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. All other historical records of the time are silent about him. The brief mentions of Jesus in the writings of Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius have been generally regarded as not genuine and as Christian interpolations; in Jewish writings there is no report about Jesus that has historical value. Some scholars have even gone so far as to hold that the entire Jesus story is a myth…"

The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia (v. 6, 83)

- Who Was Jesus? 84

Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ

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Freethinkaluva22
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:21 am 
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Josephus mentioned around 20 different Jesus's and none turn out to be the New Testament Jesus.

Quote:
Was there a Jesus? Of course there was a Jesus – many!

"The archetypal Jewish hero was Joshua (the successor of Moses) otherwise known as Yehoshua (Yeshua) bin Nun (‘Jesus of the fish’). Since the name Jesus (Yeshua or Yeshu in Hebrew, Iesous in Greek, source of the English spelling) originally was a title (meaning ‘saviour’, derived from ‘Yahweh Saves’) probably every band in the Jewish resistance had its own hero figure sporting this moniker, among others.

Josephus, the first century Jewish historian mentions no fewer than nineteen different Yeshuas/Jesii, about half of them contemporaries of the supposed Christ! In his Antiquities, of the twenty-eight high priests who held office from the reign of Herod the Great to the fall of the Temple, no fewer than four bore the name Jesus: Jesus ben Phiabi, Jesus ben Sec, Jesus ben Damneus and Jesus ben Gamaliel. Even Saint Paul makes reference to a rival magician, preaching ‘another Jesus’ (2 Corinthians 11,4). The surfeit of early Jesuses includes:

Jesus ben Sirach
Jesus ben Pandira
Jesus ben Ananias
Jesus ben Saphat
Jesus ben Gamala
Jesus ben Thebuth

"Did Jesus Live 100 B.C.?" By G.R.S. Mead

Here are the many Jesus's mentioned by Josephus throughout his works along with citations:

1. Jesus, son of Phabes – High priest. Ant 15.322
2. Jesus, son of Ananus – Common man prophesied destruction of the temple. War 6.300
3. Jesus, or Jason – High priest. Ant 12.239
4. Jesus, son of Sapphias – Governor of Tiberias. War 2.566, War 2.599; Life 1.066, Life 1.134
5. Jesus, brother of Onias – High priest. Ant 12.237, Ant 12.238, Ant 12.239
6. Jesus, son of Gamaliel – High priest. Ant 20.213, Ant 20.223
7. Jesus, no patronym – Eldest high priest after Ananus. War 4.238, War 4.316, War 4.325
8. Jesus, son of Damneus – High priest. Ant 20.203
9. Jesus, son of Gamala – High priest & Josephus’ friend. War 4.160; Life 1.193, Life 1.204
10. Jesus, [or Joshua] son of Nun – Successor to Moses. Ant 03.049, Ant 03.308; Ant 4.459
11. Jesus, son of Shapat – Principal head of a band of robbers controlling Tiberias, sallies against Vespasian's messenger Valerian. War 3.450
12. Jesus, son of Thebuthus – One of the priests, delivers to Titus precious things deposited in the temple. War 6.387
13. Jesus, son of Josadek – High priest. Ant 20.231, Ant 20.234
14. Jesus, no patronym – Galilean at head of a band of 600 followers, sent by Ananus & Jesus to depose Josephus. Life 1.200
15. Jesus, no patronym – Condemned to cross by Pilate. He was [the] Christ. Ant 18.063
16. Jesus, no patronym – Captain of those robbers who were in the confines of Ptolemais, allies with Josephus. Life 1.105
17. Jesus, brother of Jacob – Called the Christ. Ant 20.200

Ant.
03:049 (numerous) Jesus [Joshua] son of Nun.
11:298 Jesus, (son of Eliashib), brother of John – friend of governor Bagoses.
11:299 Jesus, [son of Eliashib] – slain by brother John, the High priest.
11:300 Jesus, [son of Eliashib]
11:301 Jesus, [son of Eliashib] – slain by brother John, the High priest.
12:237 Jesus, brother of Onias III – High priest.
12:238 Jesus, brother of Onias III – Deposed as High priest in favor of Onias = Menelaus
12:239 Jesus, younger brother of Onias = Menelaus – High priest.
12:239 Jesus, brother of Onias III – Renamed Jason. Revolts against Onias = Menelaus.
15:041 Jesus, (brother of Onias III)
15:322 Jesus, son of Phabes – High priest.
17:341 Jesus, the son of Sie – High priest.
18:063 Jesus, no patronym – Condemned to cross by Pilate. He was [the] Christ.
20:200 Jesus, brother of Jacob – Called the Christ.
20:203 Jesus, son of Damneus – High priest.
20:205 Jesus, [son of Damneus] – High priest.
20:213 Jesus, son of Gamaliel – High priest.
20.213 Jesus, son of Damneus – Deposed as High priest.
20:223 Jesus, son of Gamaliel – High priest.
20:234 Jesus, son of Josadek – High priest.

War
2:566 Jesus, son of Sapphias – Governor of Tiberias.
2:599 Jesus, son of Sapphias – Governor of Tiberias.
3:450 Jesus, son of Shapat – Principal head of a band of robbers controlling Tiberias.
3:452 Jesus, [son of Shapat]
3:457 Jesus, [son of Shapat] – Departs Tiberius to Taricheae
3:467 Jesus, [son of Shapat]
3:498 Jesus, [son of Shapat]
4:160 Jesus, son of Gamala – Best esteemed, with Ananus ben Ananus, of High priests.
4:238 Jesus, no patronym – Eldest high priest after Ananus.
4:270 Jesus, no patronym – [Eldest high priest after Ananus].
4:283 Jesus, no patronym – [Eldest high priest after Ananus].
4:316 Jesus, no patronym – [Eldest high priest after Ananus].
4:322 Jesus, no patronym – [Eldest high priest after Ananus].
4:325 Jesus, no patronym – [Eldest high priest after Ananus].
4:459 Jesus [Joshua] son of Nun.
6:114 Jesus, no patronym – High priest, deserts to Vespasian.
6:300 Jesus, son of Ananus – Common man prophesied destruction of the temple.
6:387 Jesus, son of Thebuthus – One of the priests, deserts to Titus.

Life
1:066 Jesus, son of Sapphias – Governor of Tiberias.
1:067 Jesus, son of Sapphias – [Governor of Tiberias.]
1:105 Jesus, no patronym – Captain of those robbers in the confines of Ptolemais.
1:108 Jesus, no patronym – [Captain of those robbers in the confines of Ptolemais.]
1:109 Jesus, no patronym – [Captain of those robbers in the confines of Ptolemais.]
1:110 Jesus, no patronym – [Captain of those robbers in the confines of Ptolemais.]
1:134 Jesus, son of Sapphias – Governor of Tiberias.
1:178 Jesus, no patronym – Brother of Justus of Tiberias.
1:186 Jesus, no patronym – Brother of Justus of Tiberias.
1:193 Jesus, son of Gamala – High priest & Josephus’ friend.
1:200 Jesus, no patronym – Galilean at head of a band of 600, sent to depose Josephus.
1:204 Jesus, son of Gamala – High priest & Josephus’ friend.
1:246 Jesus, no patronym – Owned a house big as a castle. Governor of Tiberias?
1:271 Jesus, no patronym – Governor of Tiberias.
1:278 Jesus, no patronym – [Governor of Tiberias.]
1:294 Jesus, no patronym – [Governor of Tiberias.]
1:295 Jesus, no patronym – [Governor of Tiberias.]
1:300 Jesus, no patronym – [Governor of Tiberias.]
1:301 Jesus, no patronym – [Governor of Tiberias.]

The Works of Josephus Whiston translation online

The Works of Josephus Whiston translation online

Josephus: The Complete Works Whiston translation online

The Works of Josephus in Greek

Flavius Josephus

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Freethinkaluva22
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:44 am 
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Here's a brief list of those who knew of Josephus and/or his works yet made no mention of the Testimonium Flavianum (TF) or Jesus:

Quote:
93 CE
Josephus: The book Jewish Antiquities by Josephus is published in Rome. . . Manuscripts surviving today also contain a description of Jesus. But was this description present in the year 93? Josephus, in deference to the sensibilities of his Roman protectors, is at pains to avoid any mention of Jewish Messianic hopes. The only reference to a Messiah is in the description of Jesus and Christians which first appear with Eusebius.

ca.140′s CE
Justin Martyr writes lengthy polemics against the unbelief of Jews and pagans and arguments for Christianity. No reference to Josephus. Had Josephus written about Jesus, positive or negative, could such works have remained unknown to Justin?

ca.170′s CE
Theophilus, Patriarch of Antioch writes lengthy polemics against pagan refusal to believe in Christianity. No reference to Jesus in Josephus, although he cites Josephus in his Apology to Autolycus, Bk 3, ch. 23.

ca.180′s CE
Irenaeus writes at length against unbelief without any reference to a work by Josephus. “t is clear that Irenaeus was unfamiliar with Book 18 of ‘Antiquities’ since he wrongly claims that Jesus was executed by Pilate in the reign of Claudius (Dem. ev. ap. 74), while Antiquities 18.89 indicates that Pilate was deposed during the reign of Tiberius, before Claudius” (Wikipedia’s citation of Whealey’s ‘Josephus on Jesus’). Had Josephus discussed Jesus how could Irenaeus have been ignorant of the fact? Surely some knowledge of such a passage in the famous Jewish historian would have reached Irenaeus and others.

Fragment XXXII from the lost writings of Irenaeus, however, does know Josephus — see 32:53.

ca.190′s CE
Clement of Alexandria wrote extensively in defence of Christianity against pagan hostility. He knew Josephus’ works — see Stromata Book 1 Chater 21. No reference to any mention of Jesus by Josephus.

ca.200′s CE
Tertullian wrote lengthy apolegetics against unbelief and in justification of Christianity. No reference to a passage about Jesus by Josephus. But he elsewhere knows Josephus’ works — see Apologeticum ch.19.

ca.200′s CE
Minucius Felix, another apologist, no references to Jesus from Josephus, although he knows and cites Josephus — see chapter 33.

ca.210′s CE
Hippolytus wrote volumes of apologetics but appears to know nothing of a reference to Jesus by Josephus. Fragments of his works — see On Jeremiah and Ezekiel.145 — show he knows Josephus.

ca.220′s CE
Sextus Julius Africanus was a Christian historian who is not known to cite Josephus’s passage on Jesus although he did know of Josephus‘s works — see Chatper 17.38 of his Chronography.

ca.230′s CE
Origen knows Josephus: four citations of Josephus are found here, but none reference a Jesus passage in Josephus.

1. cites a passage in Josephus on the death of James “the brother of Jesus” (Book 20 of the Antiquities);
2. states Josephus did not believe in Jesus (Origen in fact notes that Josephus proclaimed the Roman emperor Vespasian as the long awaited world ruler of biblical prophecy).
3. summarized what Josephus said about John the Baptist in Book 18.
4. said Josephus attributed destruction of Jerusalem to murder of James the Just (something not found in our copies of the works of Josephus) — (Josephus actually implies the destruction of Jerusalem was punishment for the murder of Ananias).
5. does not cite any reference to Jesus from Josephus.

ca.240′s CE
Cyprian (North Africa) prolific apologist with no reference to Jesus in Josephus.

ca.270′s CE
Anatolius, demonstrates his knowledge of Josephus in his Paschal Canon, chapter 3. No reference to Jesus in Josephus.

ca.290′s CE
Arnobius (North Africa) prolific apologist with no reference to Jesus in Josephus.

ca.300′s CE
Methodius, a Church Father who opposed Origen, and cites Josephus (see On the Resurrection — the citation is misplaced at the bottom of the page) but makes no reference to a Jesus passage in Josephus.

ca.300′s CE
Lactantius (North Africa) prolific apologist with no reference to Jesus in Josephus.

ca.324 CE
Eusebius quotes a reference in Josephus to Jesus that survives today in all manuscripts:

"[i]Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."

Some expressions in the above are Josephan, but used in a way contrary to how Josephus uses them elsewhere. Some expressions are characteristic of those found in other writings of Eusebius. More on this in a future post.

Eusebius in fact cites this passage three times — in three of his works — to assert a reputable Jewish support for the good character of Jesus:

1. Demonstratio Evangelica
2. History of the Church
3. Theophany

ca.370′s CE
Jerome cites Josephus 90 times but cites the Testimonium (the Josephan passage about Jesus) only the once, and that in his Illustrious Men, 13. “It is likely that Jerome knew of the Testimonium from the copy of Eusebius available to him.” (Eddy and Boyd). The silence on the Testimonium outside De Viris Illustribus 13 may well relate to the period prior to his attaining access to the Eusebian text of Josephus.

The one reference of Jerome’s is nearly identical to that of Eusebius except that where Eusebius had “He was the Christ”, Jerome cited Josephus as saying, “He was believed to be the Christ.” From CCEL:

"In this same time was Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it be lawful to call him man. For he was a worker of wonderful miracles, and a teacher of those who freely receive the truth. He had very many adherents also, both of the Jews and of the Gentiles, and was believed to be Christ, and when through the envy of our chief men Pilate had crucified him, nevertheless those who had loved him at first continued to the end, for he appeared to them the third day alive. Many things, both these and other wonderful things are in the songs of the prophets who prophesied concerning him and the sect of Christians, so named from Him, exists to the present day."

Jerome, like Origen earlier, also wrote that Josephus interpreted the fall of Jerusalem as punishment for the stoning of James the Just, an interpretation not found in our copies of Josephus.

ca.380′s CE
St John Chrysostom

1. In his Homily 76 he writes that Jerusalem was destroyed as a punishment for the crucifixion of Jesus.
2. He discusses Josephus, but makes no reference to any passage about Jesus in Josephus.
3. In his Homily 13 he writes that Josephus attributed the destruction of Jerusalem to death of John the Baptist.

Read the full blog at: Vridar

What Did Jews Have to Say?

Does Josephus prove a historical Jesus?

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Acharya
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:52 am 
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Heads up on Carrier's mythicist article being published in a peer-reviewed journal.

Origen, Eusebius and the Accidental Interpolation in Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.200

Quote:
Abstract:

Analysis of the evidence from the works of Origen, Eusebius, and Hegesippus concludes that the reference to "Christ" in Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.200 is probably an accidental interpolation or scribal emendation and that the passage was never originally about Christ or Christians. It referred not to James the brother of Jesus Christ, but probably to James the brother of the Jewish high priest Jesus ben Damneus.

Let the games begin.

Be sure to see my latest Josephus article as well:

Does Josephus prove a historical Jesus?

Note this part in my article, published in early April 2012:

Quote:
It is possible that Origen was referring to one of the other Jesuses in Josephus, possibly even the Old Testament hero Joshua, revered for bringing the Israelites into the Promised Land and treated of at length by the Jewish historian. The Greek word for "messiah," christos, was not limited to Jesus Christ but can be found in the Old Testament/Septuagint around 40 times, referring to a number of OT heroes, including King David and the Persian king Cyrus. It is possible that Origen's comment was simply an offhand remark about how there was nothing at all in Josephus concerning Jesus of Nazareth, implying that the Jewish historian obviously did not consider Jesus to be the Christ, since he did not even write about him. It could even be something as simple as a reference to the other "Jesus" in the section about "James the brother" (Ant. 20.9.1) - a "Jesus" that need not be Jesus of Nazareth but could very well be the one mentioned in the same chapter (Ant. 20.9.4), Jesus the son of Gamaliel, the successor of Jesus the son of Damneus. The bottom line is that there is no hard scientific evidence that Origen knew the TF and that it remains unknown in the historical record until Eusebius.

Also don't forget that I too had a mythicist article published in a reader with the works of many qualified scholars, edited by Iranian Oxford scholar Dr. Payam Nabarz:

Anahita, virgin mother of Mithra

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