Spong? lol he's a Mason. And please give me the direct citation where he denies 1Cor.15 does not date 4-5 years after Jesus' death. I want to see it chapter and verse because if he does, it will prove he is not a scholar on this subject.
He is NOT a Mason. Where did you get that idea? Obviously you know nothing about the man.
Secondly, I can give you direct citation right here: http://secure.agoramedia.com/spong/week254story1.asp
He dates Paul to have written between 50 and 64 CE. Judas is the Greek form of Judah and IF Judas is pure fiction, then what would that make the story of Jesus?
I already referenced my sources showing this is the universal consensus of scholars.
No you have not. You have just TOLD us to read two to four books over and over again, like some preacher.
Yes it is. It is only denied by a few atheists who are not even specialists in this field. I'M TALKING ABOUT SPECIALISTS.
No, I'm afraid not.
Spong is a Freemason. The Mason's have been on an agenda to destroy Christian belief since about AD. 43. But Spong does not deny the historical Jesus, so I don't know why you even mentioned him.
He is not. You know nothing about Spong and IF you read his books, you would know he sees it as myth. Why have I mentioned him? Because he IS a specialist in the field. Where in the world did you get the idea he is a Freemason? He is not. He is a retired Episcopal Bishop.
Price is an atheist. That should tell you something. Listen to his debate with Habermas at garyhabermas.com. He makes a fool of himself.
And as a fellow Humanist I'm suppose to care about him being an atheist? I'm sorry, but obviously I don't care that he is an atheist. He's also a former Baptist minister with degrees in theology AND an Episcopalian. Actually, he does not make a fool of himself.
You are going to the wrong people my friend.
I don't THINK so and to attack them is not contributing to the conversation. It is only showing how much you don't know. In fact, I happen to know them personally and have corresponded with them frequently. Therefore, I know more about them and their agenda, which apparently is more than you can say.
IF your intent is to tick me off, well forget it, because it just makes you look bad and shows you have little knowledge of who you are talking about. Besides that, haven't you ever notice that those who have spent a lifetime studying it, generally end up being non-theists? Guess not, because it appears to me like you're an ostrich. No matter, there are worse animals to be.
Besides that, you have not answered my questions:
1. Why should we listen to you, a person who shows no knowledge of literature, spelling, or what have you?
2. What happens if we don't listen to you?
I've said this in another thread and I really hate repeating myself...
1. If there ever was a historical Jesus, he is buried in myth.
2. The gospels are a pure work of fiction. Not only that Paul was written BEFORE them. Most scholars state this.
3. The gospels are written to the Hebrew liturgical calendar. For more on this read John Shelby Spong's "A New Christianity for a New World". I hear it is also in his book "Jesus for the Non-Religious" too.
I'll run it down for you (p 92-100) mind you he works backwards in the liturgical year:
Passover can be found in Mark 14:1-15:42.
Mark 9:2-8 is the Festival of Dedication. The light of god was restored to the temple. We have in Jesus the new temple, the meeting place between God and human life.
Next is the 8 day feast of Tabernacles, the Jewish harvest festival. Mark 4:1-41 Jesus tells harvest parables.
Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement is next. Here Jesus is portrayed as healing the sick.
Rosh Hashanah, the kingdom of God is at hand and people are urged to repent. The author puts this message on John the Baptist's lip making him the ram's horn (a human shofar) Mark 1:1-11 and Matt 3:2 These signs in these midrashes were taken primarily from Isaiah 35.
The narrative closes with Pentecost/Shavuot in Matthew, which is an omit part of Mark's year. Moses was on Mt Sinai, and Jesus is in the wilderness as well as the Sermon on the Mount. (again, another midrash) Moses got the 10 Commandments, Jesus the Beatitudes. Psalms 119 opens with two verses beginning with blessed and more than likely inspired the Beatitudes. The wildness scene is a midrash of Moses's time on Mt. Sinai.
In Matt 26 that is the preparation for the Passover because Jesus is to be the sacrificial lamb. This much I do know for sure.
Luke 9:26-27 is the middle of Yom Kippur. Luke 21 is just before Passover, as well as Mark 13. Mark 14 is Passover as I mentioned above. John 21 is without a doubt Shavuot.
Now, if we take Robert Price's analysis from his book Deconstructing Jesus
, he says it's nothing but a play and Jesus is that scapegoat. They act out the Passover, just as they do the Virgin Birth. It's nothing but a Kangeroo court. They make Jesus the King of fools.
Anyway, no one lives out a play nor do they live out their lives to some liturgical calendar.
As for the dates of when the gospels were written, none of the authors were eyewitnesses. Few lived to be 60 or 70 years (or more) back then and those who lived hardly felt like writing. Scholars who date the gospels even later than what you listed.
Be that as it may, what is written is mythological and it didn't fail because Rome eventually imposed it on everyone and kept them nieve to the truth. When Christianity originally started they did not see Jesus as a real person. Gnostics for example did not view their saviour in the flesh, he was spiritual. Docetism did not view Jesus as a real man either and the divinity could not be convicted nor could he truly enter into matter either- the bodily experiences were not real. Both were early Christian views of Jesus before Rome came along and anthropomophasized the man. (Doherty speaks a little about this in his book The Jesus Puzzle.)
Paul, who was written before the gospels, wrote of a spiritual resurrection, not a bodily resurrection- a form of docetism. He also never met Jesus. Everything about Jesus was to Paul a metaphysical, but you'd better believe it or he'd call you a heretic.
However, Paul accreditted very little to Jesus himself- but rather God or Christ- the Kristos. So, what started as docetism was turned into "reality", but none of it was ever real. This is called Euhemerism. The job of the euhemerist and as historians was to distill the history from the myths- make myth become fact, only it never was fact.
I, for one, have learned from some of the best theologians and scholars. Do yourself a favour and just give it up, because I can continue. However, I'm calling it a night for tonight.