Freethought Nation

This was a forgery and it is confirmed in many places, by many scholars.



Not only does this not make it so, but all four are different and none of them eye witnesses.



No, it was not 4-5 years later. Even my dear Spong doesn't give that early date.



Acharya knows her Greek now, and her Latin.



Read her books. That would be a good start.



No, there is not more written evidence. The only written evidence, which it is not evidence, are the gospels and they are JUST stories.



Not a fact. Since you are so insistant we read certain books, try not only Acharya's, but Robert Price's books, a couple of them Deconstructing Jesus and Jesus is Dead, and John Shelby Spong's Resurrection: Myth or Reality?. It is not accepted by all scholars, theologians, and historians. Mind you, Spong is a retired Epsicopal bishop and he knows his stuff. He's spent a lifetime studying it. Robert Price is a former Baptist minister, who attends the Episcopal Church, but is also a Humanist. Price also has a new one out called Jesus Christ Superstar, which I've not read yet, but I'm sure it will be of his usual good quality.

Oh and while you are at it, try Price's The Reason Driven Life. Awesome book there. BTW, I have not and will not read what's his name's The Purpose Driven Life. There's no reason to, because it's tripe. So, given that info, you can gather what else I won't read also.

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Mriana

Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison

ignore...

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I suggest you read 'Who Was Jesus' http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/whowasjesus.html by Acharya S if YOU want to get abreast on THE LATEST contemporary Jesus research!

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That's an ad homiem fallacy on your part. And it does not follow logically that because someone commits a typo, they have nothing worthy of note. And you have commited a red herring by attempting to shift the issue. And you are wrong anyway. Crucifiction and crucifixtion are both acceptables words to describe it.



Tell me why. That's the whole point! Everyone who writes and specializes on Jesus' research believes He existed. This is what the scholars are saying. There is no evidence He did not exist. Only left wing fringe groups like atheists deny His existence. Their bias is obvious.



No, I'm defining a scholar as someone who has spent a lifetime studying this topic. They usually have a working knowledge in Greek, Latin and/or Hebrew.



I am well versed in logic. What fallacy is it?



I would bet money you have never even read one single book that was not written by an atheist or Gnostic author. You are guilty of the fallacy of argumentum ad ignorantium (total ignorance of the position you are trying to refute).



I don't believe in a zombie in the sky either. But Acharya is clearly not recognized by the scholarly community.




Give me an example. Put your money where your moth is.

Freethinkaluva22 wrote:

The Church Father's never had to deal with the issue. None of the ancient enemies of Christianity ever disputed his existence. "What your enemy admits is usually true" (principle of enemy attestation). And as the Encyclopedia of Britanica stated in 1990, the existence of Jesus was first disputed and on inadequate grounds in the 17th century.



Nothing I have stated has been debunked by SCHOLARS. I'm talking about people who know what they are talking about. You are depending on pseud-scholarship.

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Acquisition of spiritual knowledge without purification of the heart is the theology of demons --St. Maximos the Confessor

Oh then you must read Bishop Spong's work. He's spent a lifetime studying the topic and knows his languages. You can get a real education from that man, starting with the fact that the gospels were written according to the Hebrew liturgical calendar. Not to some man's life story. See A New Christianity for a New World. He has a chapter or two on the subject.

BTW, Acharya has a little more than a working knowledge of Greek and Latin, not only that, she has spent a lifetime studying it all too.

Robert Price has spent a lifetime studying the subject and his knowledge is vast.

Cupitt for that matter has too, as well as Karen Armstrong, Borg, and many others found on the Jesus Seminar fellows list.

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Mriana

Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison

You people repeat these errors like parrots. There has been disputes about the newer version of Josephus, but Dr's Flusser and Pines of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem (the two greatest Josephus scholars in the world) have argued the older Arabic version is authentic and shows no evidence of tampering. And the portion on Jesus' crucifiction is not disputed. (Read "The Historical Jesus," by Habermas). He discusses in detail the work of Pines and Flusser.

And Josephus also speaks of several apostles, John the Baptist and the Virgin Mary.





The subtle differences show they are authentic because they called it as they saw it (Geisler). A forgery would not have used a document that had minor differences. What's your proof they did not write it? Give me a reason to believe you. The oral tradition of the Church says they wrote it. Who are you? John and Luke, for example, claimed to be eyewitnesses (1John 1, Luke 1).



Spong? lol he's a Mason. And please give me the direct citation where he denies 1Cor.15 does not date 4-5 years after Jesus' death. I want to see it chapter and verse because if he does, it will prove he is not a scholar on this subject.

I already referenced my sources showing this is the universal consensus of scholars.




It is becoming increasingly clear to me that the few people I have dialogued with on this site thus far, really have no idea at all what they are talking about. The arguments are so lame and unsupported I can't even believe you are making them. You just say totally assinine things and don't support any of it. Your only policy seems to just be "DENY EVERYTHING." No reasons are given WHY they should be deined. They are just denied.

TIBERIUS CAESAR

He was a contemporary of Jesus. He is mentioned in 10 sources within 150 years after his death.

Jesus is mentioned in 42 total sources in the same lenghth of time. That's more than four times the number of total sources who mention Caesar during roughly the same period.

JULIUS CAESAR

In 150 years after his death, more non-Christian authors alone comment on Jesus than all of the sources who mention Julius Caesar's great military conquest within 150 years of his death.






There's no fact Jesus was NOT crucified.

I gave minimal fact # 1. I did not invent it. I even gave sources proving it. That Jesus was crucified is accepted as HISTORY by the majority of NT scholars and historians -- liberal and conservative.

You can deny all you want. It changes nothing.



Yes it is. It is only denied by a few atheists who are not even specialists in this field. I'M TALKING ABOUT SPECIALISTS.



Spong is a Freemason. The Mason's have been on an agenda to destroy Christian belief since about AD. 43. But Spong does not deny the historical Jesus, so I don't know why you even mentioned him.



Price is an atheist. That should tell you something. Listen to his debate with Habermas at garyhabermas.com. He makes a fool of himself.



Ok, you gave me two people. Spong (who does not deny the historical Christ) and Price and atheist.

You are going to the wrong people my friend.

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Acquisition of spiritual knowledge without purification of the heart is the theology of demons --St. Maximos the Confessor

Actually, I was a saved and baptized Christian for 20 years. You should refrain from making false assumptions about folks you do not know.


"I've known people with triple Ph.D's who haven't come close to the scholarship here."
- Pastor David Bruce, M.Div North Park Seminary, Chicago
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/whowasjesus1.html


I don't think you've shared anything that hasn't already been debunked at all.


Yeah they did even from the very beginning. You just don't appear to be aware of it at all. Ever hear of Justin Martyr or Tertullian?


This comment demonstrates that you aren't nearly as erudite as you would attempt to lead us to believe. Your dishonesty certainly is typical though as we see it often.






Really? "Many bible scholars and ministers--including one third of the clergy in the Church of England--reject the idea that Jesus bodily came back to life. So do 30% of born-again American Christians!"...

Did Jesus Really Rise From The Dead?

Where are the primary sources for the existence of Jesus?

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2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube

He is NOT a Mason. Where did you get that idea? Obviously you know nothing about the man.

Secondly, I can give you direct citation right here: http://secure.agoramedia.com/spong/week254story1.asp He dates Paul to have written between 50 and 64 CE. Judas is the Greek form of Judah and IF Judas is pure fiction, then what would that make the story of Jesus?



No you have not. You have just TOLD us to read two to four books over and over again, like some preacher.



No, I'm afraid not.



He is not. You know nothing about Spong and IF you read his books, you would know he sees it as myth. Why have I mentioned him? Because he IS a specialist in the field. Where in the world did you get the idea he is a Freemason? He is not. He is a retired Episcopal Bishop.



And as a fellow Humanist I'm suppose to care about him being an atheist? I'm sorry, but obviously I don't care that he is an atheist. He's also a former Baptist minister with degrees in theology AND an Episcopalian. Actually, he does not make a fool of himself.



I don't THINK so and to attack them is not contributing to the conversation. It is only showing how much you don't know. In fact, I happen to know them personally and have corresponded with them frequently. Therefore, I know more about them and their agenda, which apparently is more than you can say.

IF your intent is to tick me off, well forget it, because it just makes you look bad and shows you have little knowledge of who you are talking about. Besides that, haven't you ever notice that those who have spent a lifetime studying it, generally end up being non-theists? Guess not, because it appears to me like you're an ostrich. No matter, there are worse animals to be.

Besides that, you have not answered my questions:

1. Why should we listen to you, a person who shows no knowledge of literature, spelling, or what have you?

2. What happens if we don't listen to you?

I've said this in another thread and I really hate repeating myself...

1. If there ever was a historical Jesus, he is buried in myth.

2. The gospels are a pure work of fiction. Not only that Paul was written BEFORE them. Most scholars state this.

3. The gospels are written to the Hebrew liturgical calendar. For more on this read John Shelby Spong's "A New Christianity for a New World". I hear it is also in his book "Jesus for the Non-Religious" too.

I'll run it down for you (p 92-100) mind you he works backwards in the liturgical year:

Passover can be found in Mark 14:1-15:42.

Mark 9:2-8 is the Festival of Dedication. The light of god was restored to the temple. We have in Jesus the new temple, the meeting place between God and human life.

Next is the 8 day feast of Tabernacles, the Jewish harvest festival. Mark 4:1-41 Jesus tells harvest parables.

Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement is next. Here Jesus is portrayed as healing the sick.

Rosh Hashanah, the kingdom of God is at hand and people are urged to repent. The author puts this message on John the Baptist's lip making him the ram's horn (a human shofar) Mark 1:1-11 and Matt 3:2 These signs in these midrashes were taken primarily from Isaiah 35.

The narrative closes with Pentecost/Shavuot in Matthew, which is an omit part of Mark's year. Moses was on Mt Sinai, and Jesus is in the wilderness as well as the Sermon on the Mount. (again, another midrash) Moses got the 10 Commandments, Jesus the Beatitudes. Psalms 119 opens with two verses beginning with blessed and more than likely inspired the Beatitudes. The wildness scene is a midrash of Moses's time on Mt. Sinai.

In Matt 26 that is the preparation for the Passover because Jesus is to be the sacrificial lamb. This much I do know for sure.

Luke 9:26-27 is the middle of Yom Kippur. Luke 21 is just before Passover, as well as Mark 13. Mark 14 is Passover as I mentioned above. John 21 is without a doubt Shavuot.

Now, if we take Robert Price's analysis from his book Deconstructing Jesus, he says it's nothing but a play and Jesus is that scapegoat. They act out the Passover, just as they do the Virgin Birth. It's nothing but a Kangeroo court. They make Jesus the King of fools.

Anyway, no one lives out a play nor do they live out their lives to some liturgical calendar.

As for the dates of when the gospels were written, none of the authors were eyewitnesses. Few lived to be 60 or 70 years (or more) back then and those who lived hardly felt like writing. Scholars who date the gospels even later than what you listed.

Be that as it may, what is written is mythological and it didn't fail because Rome eventually imposed it on everyone and kept them nieve to the truth. When Christianity originally started they did not see Jesus as a real person. Gnostics for example did not view their saviour in the flesh, he was spiritual. Docetism did not view Jesus as a real man either and the divinity could not be convicted nor could he truly enter into matter either- the bodily experiences were not real. Both were early Christian views of Jesus before Rome came along and anthropomophasized the man. (Doherty speaks a little about this in his book The Jesus Puzzle.)

Paul, who was written before the gospels, wrote of a spiritual resurrection, not a bodily resurrection- a form of docetism. He also never met Jesus. Everything about Jesus was to Paul a metaphysical, but you'd better believe it or he'd call you a heretic.

However, Paul accreditted very little to Jesus himself- but rather God or Christ- the Kristos. So, what started as docetism was turned into "reality", but none of it was ever real. This is called Euhemerism. The job of the euhemerist and as historians was to distill the history from the myths- make myth become fact, only it never was fact.

I, for one, have learned from some of the best theologians and scholars. Do yourself a favour and just give it up, because I can continue. However, I'm calling it a night for tonight.

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Mriana

Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison

What Jesus's Cross Really Looked Like, nice little blog post by Stephan Huller. I bumped into those St. Andrew "X"es recently while I was researching Christ on a tree.

This is an interesting old thread. Thanks Pranique for mining the archive. The apologist idiot speaks about "crucifiction" and then fails completely to see the irony in a misspelling that actually describes the reality - the cross was fiction.

Massey's lecture, THE HISTORICAL JESUS AND MYTHICAL CHRIST, is available at http://gerald-massey.org.uk/massey/dpr_ ... _jesus.htm

On the cross, Massey states the following, inter alia, in this lecture.



On stauros, the term used in the New Testament, wikipedia discusses at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stauros and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument ... rucifixion