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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:42 pm 
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Jesus & Horus Parallels and KingDavid8.com Exposed

The website kingdavid8.com - which basically attacks Zeitgeist Part 1 and Acharya S (all the lists come from her first book) - is by a Christian apologist who has no relevant credentials whatsoever, but who is presenting himself as an expert on works he has not studied and on subjects he obviously has little knowledge about anyway. This site is being bandied around by other non-credentialed and unqualified Christian apologists as if it is written by an expert.

First of all, the website is created by a guy who calls himself "King David." What's with that bogus name? People criticize Acharya for using a pseudonym, but they apparently have no problem with people masquerading as biblical figures.

Anyway, I was mildly surprised to see that nobody has taken the time to address this guy's website. But, I understand why nobody would want to waste their time with it, because, again, "King David" has absolutely no relevant credentials whatsoever. Kingdavid8 is no linguist, as he does not read, write or speak any other languages beyond English. Again, he is another Christian apologist with the intent of shoring-up his Christian faith however he can. The utter fear of being wrong on these issues is simply unconscionable to many Christians. Thus, they engage in calumny and libel against people whose works they hardly know. And they pretend to be experts on subjects they know little about, except for scanning online encyclopedias.

I've gone through as many websites like kingdavid8.com as I can. You'll notice they often share the same sources and links to the same Christian apologist websites - often with no more relevant credentials than our Christian friend King David = 0 relevant credentials. They tweak their talking points to convince others that their religious beliefs are correct and that all other religions are false. So, of course, they tend to only provide the arguments and sources that are convenient to their arguments. Fair enough for the non-credentialed and non-scholarly religious devotee. Would we really expect to see anything else? However, if they actually read and studied the works by the "Christ Mythers," they love to demonize they would quickly realize that their Christian arguments were debunked long ago before they were even born.

Another factoid concerning KingDavid8.com is, "Christ-Mythers" are immediately dismissed as non-credible. So, if one substantiates the list of parallels with sources coming from those dirty, no-good "Christ-Mythers," that person is instantly dismissed. So, according to KD8, if he detects a "Christ-Myther agenda," he won't accept it. Therefore, he can continue to claim, for all eternity, that "the Christ-Myther claims are false." It's a sure-fire way to guarantee KingDavid8.com doesn't ever have to pay anyone for his $1,000 challenge.

At first glance, the kingdavid8.com website may appear objective, with loads of reasonable arguments for those who wouldn't know any better - for example, here discussing the "parallels between the Jesus and Horus":

Code:
Jesus & Horus Parallels - A Christian Response
http://www.kingdavid8.com/Copycat/JesusHorus.html

However, what kingdavid8 will never tell you is that he has *NEVER* read a single book by Acharya S.
Quote:
kingdavid8 "I have a website that is trying to debunk the claim of the Jesus story being influenced by pre-Christian deities. I've asked several of the websites that are promoting the "Christ-myth" to provide evidence for their claims, and so far none have given me such evidence. You would think that if they had any evidence to support their claims, they'd be parading it for all of the world to see instead of keeping it to themselves. I thought I'd try something a little more radical, and pay them to provide me their evidence, if it exists.

"Below, I give six common lists that I see Christ-mythers give. They say that these are things that pre-Christian deities were credited with doing that influenced the Jesus story. I will give $1000 to the first person who can provide evidence of any one of these lists being valid. Yes, just one. It must be evidence which shows that the deity was believed, prior to the 1st century A.D., to have done these things."

Christ-Myther Challenge win $1000

Code:
Christ-Myther Challenge! You could win $1000!
http://www.kingdavid8.com/Copycat/Challenge.html

The six lists are of Horus, Krishna, Buddha, Mithra, Dionysus and Zoroaster/Zarathustra. kingdavid8 got the lists NOT from Acharya's first book, The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold by Acharya S but, rather, from a website, as he admits:
Quote:
kingdavid8 "I took all six of the above lists from this website: Inquisitive Atheists - God-Men Like Jesus"

kingdavid8 never admits on his website (anywhere I've seen) that he has NEVER read a single book by Acharya. Yet, a majority of his website is centered around criticism of her works. Works kingdavid8 has never read. Critiquing an author's work one has never read is known as intellectual dishonesty. This is a blatant inadvertent and unspoken admission of kingdavid8's own severe lack of objectivity, honesty and sincerity. After careful examination of his website, it quickly becomes clear that kingdavid8 is biased and prejudiced in favor of his own religious faith, and that he has absolutely no intention of properly representing arguments, evidence or works put forth by Acharya S &/or other "Christ-Mythers."

It should be noted that kingdavid8 attempts to turn the term "Christ-Mythers" into another derogatory term similar to what the Republicans have done with the word "Liberal." Just another tactic used to demonize those who don't agree with their religious claims. Nor does kingdavid8 have any intention of paying $1,000 for his Christ-Myther Challenge. Not surprised? Me either. kingdavid8's plan there is to deflect any evidence and facts with the typical Xian apologist hand-waving dismissal, finding any way he can to dismiss all that he can. If you didn't know better, one might be fooled into thinking kingdavid8 was some sort of expert on a variety of religions. kingdavid8 is no expert on *ANY* religion, including Christianity.

Double standards and hypocrisy

kingdavid8 has no serious interest in the topic of comparative religion beyond defending his own faith above all else. kingdavid8 does everything he possibly can to avoid acknowledging that Acharya S, Christ-Mythers or for that matter, Zeitgeist part 1 may be correct about anything at all. It's funny to watch Christians suddenly get highly critical of pagan religions they know nothing about, beyond encyclopedia entries, while failing utterly to apply that same criticism towards their own religion, Christianity. Christians offer an eternal supply of double-standards and hypocrisy that is as transparent as glass to all those who are paying attention.

At his website you'll notice that KingDavid8 only links to Christian apologist websites and encyclopedias rather than providing any links to the works in question, which are by Acharya S. All of the lists at KD8's website are from Acharya's books and articles. KD8 doesn't want people to read the material for themselves in order to make their own well informed decisions. KD8 tries to make their decisions for them. Why? - because he's afraid of what they might learn. Refusing to allow the readers of his website to have access to the works in question is a red flag demonstrating KD8's disingenuousness at play. KD8 is not interested in any fair or objective search for truth here, he's only interested in shoring up his faith at all costs - even if it means being dishonest about it.

kingdavid8 has been working his website for several years now. He could save the $1,000 by actually reading the books he believes are his sworn enemy. The unspoken fact is that the kingdavid8.com website, at the end of the day, is essentially your typical discrimination against non-believers, harassment of Acharya S, and ridicule of "Christ-mythers" whose works he has never read.

For those interested in the facts and evidence, try actually reading the books, excerpts & articles...keeping in mind that the excerpts and articles DO NOT contain all of the details - THAT IS WHAT THE BOOKS ARE FOR. That might seem like an obvious place to start but, common sense appears to be quite rare these days.

Acharya S/Murdock currently has five books to date with over 2,100 pages of text, including over 5,700 footnotes/citations to primary sources and the works of highly credentialed and respected authorities in relevant fields of study from a wide variety of backgrounds, including many Christian scholars, adding up to over 1,600 bibliographical sources. Her books also contain over 300 illustrations.

Her book, Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection alone is almost 600 pages and contains nearly 2,400 footnotes/citations to primary sources and the works of highly credentialed and respected scholars with over 900 bibliographical references.

If kingdavid8 and his followers had actually read all of Acharya's works, they'd realize that his "challenge" was met long ago.

Books by Acharya S / Murdock:

The 2010 Astrotheology Calendar

The Gospel According to Acharya S (09)

Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection by D.M. Murdock (09)

Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ (07)

Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled (04)

The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold (99)

E-Books:

Jesus as the Sun throughout History

The Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical Jesus Christ

More E-Books

A few articles and excerpts:

Was Horus "Crucified?"

The Nativity Scene at Luxor

Born of a Virgin on December 25th: Horus, Sun God of Egypt

Well Known in Egypt?

Astrotheology of the Ancients

The Jesus Forgery: Josephus Untangled

Pliny, Tacitus, Suetonius: No Proof of Jesus

The "Historical" Jesus?

Easter: Christian or Pagan?

The Christmas Hoax: Jesus is NOT the "Reason for the Season"

The Real Zeitgeist Challenge

Rebuttal to Dr. Chris Forbes concerning 'Zeitgeist, Part 1'

Relevant forum threads at Freethought Nation:

Acharya's Frequently Asked Questions

ZEITGEIST Part 1 & The Supportive Evidence

Cruciforms/Gods on Crosses

Dying and Rising Gods

The Virgin Birth

The Jesus Challenge

Here's a video clip of modern Egyptologist Dr. Bojana Mojsov admitting parallels between Osiris &/or Horus with Jesus. And, at 5:30 you'll see a stone carving of Isis as she hovers over Osiris in the form of a bird to receive the divine seed (notice there's no 'member') of Osiris. Mojsov then says, "It's a miraculous birth of the savior child."



Here's an excerpt of a lecture by Acharya



Watch the full 80 minute video here

Other Online Videos of Acharya's Work here

_________________
Astrotheology.Net
Mythicists United
Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
2015 Astrotheology Calendar
Astrotheology Calendar Special
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube
The Mythicist Position


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:05 pm 
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In this post, I will address each number in the list as well as kingdavid8's comments from his website link one by one as time allows me:
Code:
http://www.kingdavid8.com/Copycat/JesusHorus.html

Sadly, in America we live in a society where it is believed by some that faith and euphoria trump evidence and facts. Academia holds much of the responsibility for that major flaw, but often their hands are tied, because if they were to tell the truth the public might protest against them, and religious special interest organizations and lobbyists might stop donating to academia and stop funding research geared towards proving the Bible correct, rather than follow the evidence objectively.

So, there's an endless cycle here. And, what's really funny is to watch some these "new atheists" quote or cite websites like our Christian apologist friend kingdavid8.com with no relevant qualifications, formal training or credentials whatsoever! I've seen people at the Richard Dawkins forum claiming to be atheists, quote and cite Christian apologist websites to bludgeon Acharya S. I don't think these so-called atheists realize that their talking points come from non-credentialed Christian apologists so, it's embarrassing to see atheists use Christian apologist tactics against credible evidence that actually exists.

"A lie can travel halfway round the world while the truth is putting on its shoes"

- attributed to Mark Twain

Quote:
kingdavid8 "Aren’t there some striking parallels between the Jesus and Horus stories?

"Hardly. For those unfamiliar with the Horus story, Horus is a character in Egyptian mythology, the son of the gods Isis and Osiris. There actually appear to be multiple dieties [sic] named 'Horus', but the one who is the son of Isis and Osiris is the one the critics claim influenced the Jesus story. For a quick and unbiased debunking of this story, go to any search engine and find a site on Egyptian mythology and read the Horus story for yourself (I've provided some links at the bottom of the page), or check the mythology section at your local library (go ahead, I dare you!). Acharya S's book "The Christ Conspiracy" is the apparent source of this list, but the author provides evidentiarly [sic] footnotes for only five of the claims, and those footnotes frequently disagree with her own claims!"

LOL - it's difficult not laugh at this first comment, as kingdavid8.com apparently wants people to believe he is some sort of expert on this subject! kingdavid8.com is not an expert in any religion whatsoever, including Christianity. kingdavid8.com has absolutely no qualifications or formal training. He learned everything from the internet and other Christian apologists.

So, after asking the question, "Aren’t there some striking parallels between the Jesus and Horus stories?" kingdavid8.com's response is, "Hardly." That sums up his serious research and response to everything in the lists right there. From there, he says "For those unfamiliar with the Horus story," as if he's an Egyptologist who's an expert on the subject.

Pay close attention to this comment by KD8:
Quote:
"Acharya S's book "The Christ Conspiracy" is the apparent source of this list, but the author provides evidentiary footnotes for only five of the claims, and those footnotes frequently disagree with her own claims!"

Notice how KD8 didn't mention a single footnote or provide the evidence to substantiate his claim? This is very significant because 1) KD8 has never actually read her book. 2) I suspect that this comment originally came from elsewhere (If so, KD8 provides no source) by others who also have no idea what they're talking about and KD8 decided to reproduce it without even checking. Thus, here we have a prime example of severe dishonesty and misrepresentation i.e. KD8 showing his true colors.

From there he says:

Quote:
kingdavid8.com "For a quick and unbiased debunking of this story, go to any search engine and find a site on Egyptian mythology and read the Horus story for yourself (I've provided some links at the bottom of the page), or check the mythology section at your local library (go ahead, I dare you!)."

And by "quick and unbiased debunking of this story" he means anything will do so, long as it upholds his Christian faith - and it's clear that he himself spent only a very quick time coming up with this shallow rebuttal. And with a majority of nearly 80% Christians in America, it shouldn't be any problem finding loads of websites claiming to have debunked any comparisons to other pre-xian Pagan religions. Most of the editors of encyclopedias are Christians too. In fact, many of our major universities began as religious institutions as admitted on the "about" or "history" page of the websites of Yale, Harvard, Princeton and Columbia for example. There are real problems in academia in religion courses and serious biases and prejudice in favor of Christianity. For example:

Fired for Saying Adam and Eve Mythical?

Some archaeologists are "bending science to prove a Biblical heritage" ... with "generous funding, from religious groups"

Academia refuses to even acknowledge the case for mythicism let alone investigate it. It is not a requirement for theologians or New Testament scholars to study the case for mythicism in order to get a Ph.D.

There have been Egyptologists who were also professed Christians but who nonetheless claim that the Egyptian religion had a major influence upon the later Christian religion. For example:
Quote:
"...Renowned British Egyptologist Sir Dr. E.A. Wallis Budge, a Keeper of the Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities at the British Museum, as well as a confessed Christian, remarked that a study tracing the "influence of ancient Egyptian religious beliefs and mythology on Christianity" would "fill a comparatively large volume." (GE, I, xvi.)

- CIE - Preface

So, anyway, by all means, do go to the library. Acharya found many sources from highly respected Egyptologists' books at the library - and while you're there, be sure to read Christ in Egypt. If the book isn't there then simply submit a request.
Quote:
kingdavid8.com "Acharya S's book "The Christ Conspiracy" is the apparent source of this list, but the author provides evidentiarly [sic] footnotes for only five of the claims, and those footnotes frequently disagree with her own claims!""

Err, actually, she provides NINE footnotes on page 115 of Christ Conspiracy, 53 through 61. And, fn 60 has two source references to support the claim there. Now, kingdavid8.com doesn't give any specifics explaining exactly how "those footnotes frequently disagree with her own claims" so until he does, I'm not going to waste my time with his claim here.

Still, it wouldn't matter, because Acharya has completely updated and re-newed the list and sources with modern Egyptologists and other experts in their field of study in her book, Christ in Egypt, which is a nearly 600 page book specifically substantiating the entire list of parallels. Christian apologists and even some militant atheists keep attempting to bludgeon Acharya S to death with Christ Conspiracy even though she has written several books since then - how long are they going to keep riding that little scooter? She is working on a type of 2nd edition to Christ Con titled, The Christ Myth Anthology.

1) Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
Quote:
kingdavid8.com "Horus’ mother was not a virgin. She was married to Osiris, and there is no reason to suppose she was abstinent after marriage."

Quote:
"The Pyramid Texts speak of “the great virgin” (Hwn.t wr.t) three times (682c, 728a, 2002a, cf. 809c)" ...

"In a text in the Abydos Temple of Seti I, Isis herself declares:

“I am the great virgin.”

- Christ in Egypt, page 152

The Pyramid Texts are around 4,400 years old.
Quote:
“The Egyptian goddess who was equally ‘the Great Virgin’ (hwnt) and ‘Mother of the God’ was the object of the very same praise bestowed upon her successor [Mary, Virgin Mother of Jesus].”

- Dr. Witt, an Egyptologist, Christ in Egypt, 120

There are, of course, many more Egyptologists who express this same sentiment, and their commentary can be found, obviously, in Christ in Egypt. These are facts that you can't find in encyclopedia entries and on Christian apologist websites, so those who are relying on such things - whether they are theists or atheists - are proving their own ignorance of the subject matter, as kingdavid8 does here. He's presenting himself as an expert - having obviously only scanned a Wikipedia article - when he doesn't even know that Isis was called the "Great Virgin."

The Virgin Birth Mystery

One thing non-expert, non-mythologist, shallow net-surfers like our Christian friend kingdavid8.com doesn't know is that in many pre-xian Pagan religions a female could regain her virginity via sacred union with God. It was one of the "MYSTERIES." So, regardless of being married and regardless of the number of children, her virginity may be regained through sacred union with God - this mystery is described by the ancient Jewish writer Philo, as Acharya also shows in CIE. Also, lets not forget the fact that the Egyptian gods—including Isis—were highly popular throughout the Roman Empire by the time Christianity was created. It throws a monkey wrench into their "debunking" when they learn about these types of little factoids.
Quote:
kingdavid8.com "Horus was, per the story, miraculously conceived. Seth had killed and dismembered Osiris, then Isis put her husband's dead body back together and had intercourse with it. In some versions, she used a hand-made phallus since she wasn't able to find that part of her husband. So while it was a miraculous conception, it was not a virgin birth."

So, kingdavid8.com concedes that it was a miraculous conception but denies any virgin birth, even though Isis claims herself to be the "GREAT VIRGIN" as already explained - but kingdavid8, the great "expert" on Egyptian religion clearly knew nothing about Isis being called the Great Virgin centuries before Jesus supposedly existed. Again and again, KD proves he is no expert at all but is just repeating shallow facts from encyclopedias in a dishonest attempt at shoring up the faith at all costs. The rest of his critique is just about as poor as this example.
Quote:
"In the solar myth, the enclosure in the ark during the zodiacal sign of Scorpio (October 24-November 22) symbolizes the weakening of the sun as it approaches the winter solstice. The number 28 is likewise astrotheological and represents the days of an average or mean monthly lunation, after which the soli-lunar god Osiris is torn into 14 pieces—the number 14 signifying the days of the moon’s waning per month—and then resurrected, as the moon waxes again."

- Christ in Egypt, page 70

And to repeat from above:

Here's a video clip of modern Egyptologist Dr. Bojana Mojsov admitting parallels between Osiris &/or Horus with Jesus. And, at 5:30 you'll see a stone carving of Isis as she hovers over Osiris in the form of a bird to receive the divine seed (notice there's no 'member') of Osiris. Mojsov then says, "It's a miraculous birth of the savior child."


Quote:
kingdavid8.com "Horus was given three different birthdates in mythology, one of which does correspond to December 25th. But since Jesus wasn't, per the evidence, born on 12/25, this isn't a parallel."

So, here kingdavid8.com concedes Horus was born on Dec 25th. He must have recently changed that as well as several other things because he used to deny that one too, if I remember correctly but, I could be wrong. Still, KD will have to research to find out why the early Christians chose to celebrate Jesus' birthday on a popular ancient celebration for the sun god, established a few thousand years before Jesus was invented.

It's really funny to watch Christians scramble to blame it all on everybody else when it was the early Christians themselves who chose that date. Rather, they should be pissed at God/Jesus for this irresponsible oversight of forgetting many details about Jesus birth date and many other details as well - and for not setting the record straight over the past nearly 2,000 years. I guess the omnipotent Jesus and God just couldn't get around to telling everyone that JC wasn't born on December 25th, which was in reality an ancient Pagan holiday.

Also, the fact remains that BILLIONS of Christians have celebrated Jesus' birth on Dec 25th. Does kingdavid8.com celebrate Christmas and Easter? Those are certainly the most popular Christian holidays and the both originate from Pagan religions. kingdavid8.com better run to tell all the Christians to stop celebrating those Pagan holidays.

Several early Christian writers connected the rebirth of the sun to the birth of Jesus:

"O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born ... Christ should be born"

- Cyprian
(Source: Catholic Encyclopedia)

It's important to keep in mind that we are talking about MYTHS here. And mythical characters do not have real birthdays, nor do mythical characters have real sex. It's a point that cannot be emphasized enough. Jesus is another mythical character in a long line of many other mythical characters. And, the story and meanings behind the myths are actually far more fascinating than the doctrine and dogma religions and their devotees would try to get us to believe.

I enjoy Christmas and Easter because I understand their astrotheological foundations. Because of that, I enjoy them more than ever. It's far more interesting to me now.


Quote:
kingdavid8.com "Meri" (technically "Mr-ee") is the egyptian word for "beloved" and was apparently applied to Isis prior to Jesus' time, as a title, not as part of her name. But since there were probably thousands of women between Horus' time and Jesus' with a name or title that was a variation on "Mary", there's no real reason to suppose that Jesus' mother was named after Isis in particular. Even if, hypothetically, the Gospel authors themselves fabricated Jesus' mother and decided to name her "Mary", it's far more likely that they named her after other women from around their time named "Mary" than it is that they named her after "Isis-Meri"

LOL, "'Meri' (technically 'Mr-ee')" - I'd like to see the source for that particular transliteration. By making that pretentious statement, KD is pretending to be an expert in Egyptian language! The fact is that Egyptian hieroglyphs have no vowels, so technically the word is transliterated in several ways, such as Mery and Meri. In any case, kingdavid8.com does, once again, concede that the epithet Meri was "applied to Isis prior to Jesus' time." It doesn't matter if it was a title or part of her name - the fact is that she was called by that epithet. And Christian apologists have continuously claimed that Isis was never called Mery, but they were wrong - naturally, none of them admits it. Like KD, they just change their websites and try to squirm around the facts they can't escape.

This is all highly detailed in a nearly 80-page chapter in Christ in Egypt titled, "The Virgin Isis-Mery"
Quote:
"The epithet 'Mery Isis' or 'Isis Mery' might be understood by the Egyptians as referring to the subject, often a king, as not only 'beloved of Isis,' but also 'loved by Isis' or 'whom Isis loves.'

- Christ in Egypt, page 130

Quote:
kingdavid8.com "But since there were probably thousands of women between Horus' time and Jesus' with a name or title that was a variation on 'Mary', there's no real reason to suppose that Jesus' mother was named after Isis in particular."

Who made the claim that the biblical Mary was named particularly after Isis-Meri? So, there's a straw man fallacy. However, the point Acharya is making, which becomes clear when one actually reads her book, is...
Quote:
"...there have been pre-Christian goddesses named 'Mari,' such as on the Greek island of Cyprus, as well as in the Middle East, in India, and among the Basques" .... "Demonstrating that the appellation 'Mary' is not unique to the Jewish Mother of God, the important sacred epithet meri/mery/mry was attached to numerous figures in ancient Egypt..."

- Christ in Egypt, page 125

Nevertheless, you can see kingdavid8.com make constant attempts to deflect everything away he possibly can. That's because kingdavid8.com has no intention of paying anyone $1,000 - that is quite obvious.

Swamp, manger, cave and tomb

Quote:
kingdavid8.com "Horus was born in a swamp, not a cave/manger. Acharya's footnotes for this point only make the claim that Jesus was born in a cave, and say nothing about Horus being born in one."

Once again, KD doesn't know what he is talking about - except, of course, the short encyclopedia article entry of Horus's birth in the swamp. But, as always, there's more to the story, but non-experts wouldn't know that fact. As Acharya writes in CIE (pp. 139-140):

Quote:
Another Christian source for the theme of the Egyptian virgin-mother goddess and her babe in a manger is the Chronicon Paschale or Paschal Chronicle, also known as the Chronicle of Alexandria, compiled beginning in the third century AD/CE and ending in the sixth to seventh centuries. In The Origin of All Religious Worship, French Abbé Charles Francois Dupuis (1742-1809), a professor at the Collège de France, describes the Chronicon:

Quote:
…the author of the Chronicle of Alexandria…expresses himself in the following words: "The Egyptians have consecrated up to this day the child-birth of a virgin and the nativity of her son, who is exposed in a 'crib' to the adoration of the people. King Ptolemy, having asked the reason of this custom, he was answered that it was a mystery, taught by a respectable prophet to their fathers."

Also verifying these assertions, Arthur Thomson states:

Quote:
The Chronicle of Alexandria has preserved the tradition of the practice of exhibiting the sun on the supposed day of his birth as a new-born infant as being held sacred in the mysteries of Egypt... "Up to the present time Egypt has held sacred the delivery of a virgin and the birth of her son, who is exposed in a cradle to the adoration of the people. King Ptolemy having asked the reason of this practice, the Egyptians told him that it was a mystery taught to their ancestors by a venerable prophet."

The original Greek of the Chronicon Paschale first discusses the Hebrew prophet Jeremiah and then the motif of the virgin mother and divine babe in a manger:

Quote:
Οὗτος ὁ Ἱερεμίας σημεῖον ἔδωκεν τοῖς ἱερεῦσιν Αἰγύπτου ὅτι δεῖ σεισθῆναι τὰ εἴδωλα αὐτῶν καὶ συμπεσεῖν διὰ σωτῆρος παιδὸς ἐκ παρθένου γενομένου, ἐν φάτνῃ δὲ κειμένου. Διὸ καὶ ἕως νῦν θεοποιοῦσιν παρθένον λοχὸν καὶ βρέφος ἐν φάτνῃ τιθέντες προσκυνοῦσιν.

This passage is translated quite literally by me thus:
Quote:
This Jeremiah gave a sign to the Egyptian priests that their idols would be shaken, and it would come to pass by a child-savior born from a virgin, lying in a manger. Therefore, for some time now they deify a virgin child-bearer and worship a newborn child placed in a manger.

"This Jeremiah," of course, refers to the biblical prophet, who supposedly lived in the seventh century BCE. It seems that the Chronicle author(s) was attempting to explain why the Egyptians worshipped a virgin-mother and her babe in a manger centuries before the Christian era, when Christ’s identical circumstances were supposed to be unique. However, Isis and Horus were revered long before even the time of Jeremiah, and the evidence points to the motif of the virgin-mother and babe predating the common era and being usurped by the creators of the Christ myth....

In addition, the "manger" or "crib" aspect of the solar hero’s birth is reflected in the Book of the Dead: In chapter 69, the speaker identifies himself as several of the gods—such as Osiris, Horus and Anubis—once again demonstrating their interchangeability, and reference here is made to the "cradle of Osiris," which Renouf identifies as "where Osiris renews his birth." Osiris's "renewed birth," of course, would be his son Horus.

The tomb/cave/manger theme is a common birth/death motif of the sun god. It's symbolic of the non-movement of the sun during the 3 day period of the winter solstice "until he wins the battle over death/darkness and is 'resurrected' to life and/or 'adulthood.'" (CIE, 385). Again, we are talking about myths based in astrotheology.
Quote:
"To summarize, in the solar myth the 'death' of the 'old sun' occurs as the days decrease in length towards the winter solstice—the word 'solstice' meaning 'sun stands still' —as for three days the sun appears not to be moving ... Hence, it was considered “dead” in the 'tomb' or 'cave,' and did not 'return to life' until three days later ... Therefore, the ancients said the sun was born, reborn or resurrected on December 25th..."

- Christ in Egypt, 83

Quote:
"The use of the English phrase 'December 25th' does not imply that this date was written as such in ancient times. Neither the name nor the calendar involved is relevant, as what is important is that this time of the year represented the winter solstice, however it may be called."

- CIE, p. 79

The Three Wise Men
Quote:
kingdavid8.com "There were no 'three wise men' at Horus' birth, or at Jesus' for that matter (the Bible never gives the number of wise men, and they showed up at Jesus’ home, not at the manger, probably when Jesus was a year or two old)."

kingdavid8.com, maybe the number three was in the original biblical text but was later removed because it was so blatantly obvious - there are three gifts, of course, in Matthew, and Christian tradition numbers the "wise men" as three. In any case, in the depiction of the birth of the god-king - who is Horus - there are "dignitaries" bearing gifts - basically the same number. Acharya also discusses this obviously mythical motif of the divine baby being presented with gifts by dignitaries in CIE as well (pp. 192-193):

Quote:
In the panel labeled scene 9 by Brunner and Murnane appear a number of individuals, including, on the second level below the queen, a group of figures on the right holding up ankhs. In the earlier modern renditions of this image—which were engravings, not photos, based on the badly damaged walls at Luxor—these three figures were all drawn with human heads, thereby striking one as a set of three men who were obviously dignitaries of some sort, appearing at the divine child's birth, and offering him gifts. It is these three figures whom Massey calls "kings" or "magi," using terminology from the New Testament in order to provide a point of comparison possibly indicating where the Christian motif comes from...

Remarking upon the scene in which the figures present the newly born divine child with gifts, Earl Doherty first comments upon the terminology used by Massey and others, including the present author, in calling these figures "magis," and then says:

Quote:
The basic common parallel is there in the Adoration of the child, with dignitaries offering gifts. How apologists can get so excited over these minor distinctions is beyond my understanding. (I suppose when straws are all you have to grasp at, they have to do.)

Another reason for this motif is the appearance of the three bright stars in the belt of Orion, which point to the star Sirius, which in turn signals the rising of the Nile around the summer solstice. It was during that time that not only Osiris but also his brother Horus the Elder was born. Also, the same phenomenon occurs, pointing to the horizon at the winter solstice, which is when Horus the Babe was born. Despite the frantic pointing at the lack of a number for the Magi in the New Testament, the fact remains that there's no reason to believe Jesus' nativity scene is anything other than solar mythology.
Quote:
Despite protests to the contrary, this heavenly theme is obviously astrotheological in nature, dating back centuries to millennia prior to the common era. Indeed, like so many other religious and mythological correspondences, the "bright star" and the "three kings" represent motifs that long predate Christianity and are found within Egyptian religion, symbolizing the star Sirius as well as those of the constellation called Orion, along with their relationship to the Egyptian deities Osiris, Isis and Horus.

- CIE, 198

Quote:
"...the Egyptians were well aware not only of the constellation of Orion as a whole but also the three very bright stars in its belt is demonstrated by the fact that the hieroglyph for Orion represents a 'three-looped string.' "... the Egyptians were well aware of the three belt stars and incorporated them into their mythology as “heralds” of the great savior, as, apparently, did the Christians."

- CIE, 207

Quote:
The Star in the East and Three Kings
(a short excerpt from the chapter in CIE with the same title)

The biblical Book of Job (38:32) also contains reference to the Mazzaroth, or "zodiac," and demonstrates significant astronomical knowledge, an important fact in consideration of the contention that, centuries later, the Jewish priesthood rehashed the Egyptian astrotheology in its "midrashic" or fictitious account of Jesus Christ."

Quote:
kingdavid8.com "Acharya's source for the last two claims appears to be Massey, who says 'the Star in the East that arose to announce the birth of the babe (Jesus) was Orion, which is therefore called the star of Horus. That was once the star of the three kings; for the 'three kings' is still a name of three stars in Orion's belt ...' Massey's apparently getting mixed up, and then the critics are misinterpreting it. Orion is not a star, but a constellation, of which there are three stars in a row making up the belt of Orion.

"And even if there is a specific star called 'the star of Horus', there's no legend stating that it announced Horus' birth (as the critics are claiming) or that the three stars in Orion's belt attended Horus' birth in any way."

Massey isn't mixed up, he's simply calling the constellation of Orion a "star." I see no reason for that to cause "misinterpretation" - and KD really isn't any kind of competent critic to be setting his own knowledge above that of Massey, since Massey was far more educated than kingdavid8. Gerald Massey was quite heavily peer reviewed by several of the top Egyptologists of his day - notice how the Christian apologists are oblivious to these types of facts. Who Is Gerald Massey?

Actually, Acharya cites several primary sources where Horus' birth was announced by the star in the East in CIE.
Quote:
kingdavid8.com "However, there is no evidence that these three stars were called the "Three Kings" prior to Jesus' time, nor even prior to the 19th century, for that matter."

This is a pretty bold claim for one who has no relevant qualifications, formal training or credentials. What languages did you research that led you to those conclusions?

As he is in the other instances noted above, KD is wrong here again. Orion was called the Three Kings in French - Les Trois Rois - by at least as early as the 18th century. And it was called the same in Latin by at least as early as the 17th century. So, again, KD is wrong, because he has no credentials and doesn't know much about these subjects at all - but he will never admit it and will never pay up. We've already established that fact.

I've only provided snippets of info here. There is much much more but, I am not about to regurgitate several books with thousands of pages of text for those who refuse to study the works yet, demand to be spoon-fed for years on end.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:23 pm 
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2) His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph")
Quote:
KingDavid8.com "First of all, there is no parallel between the Egyptian name “Seb” and the Hebrew name “Joseph”, other than the fact that they’re common names. Also, Seb was Osiris’ father, not Horus’."

Here is a perfect example of what happens when people like KD8 try to criticize books by those evil "Christ-Mythers," which they've never read, while at the same time pretending to be an expert on a subject they know almost nothing about. I have seen several examples just like KD8's comments from both theists, atheists and assorted skeptics. If KD8 actually read Christ Conspiracy or Suns of God he'd realize how badly he has misrepresented this one, because he really and truly does not know what he's talking about.

In the first place, King David's knowledge of the subject of the Egyptian religion is SO BAD that he doesn't even know that there's another Horus, brother of Osiris, both of whose father was SEB.

The article below explains this issue further.

Jesus, Son of Joseph, and Horus, Son of Seb
Quote:
"Budge, FFGAE, 375. In the Pyramid Texts and elsewhere, as another one of the gods born on the five intercalary or epagomenal days completing the 365-day year, Horus the Elder is also said to be, like Set, the son of Geb or Seb—the earth god and “father of the gods” - just as Jesus was the son of Jo-seph, the earthly father of God."

- CIE, 76 fn

Quote:
"Massey, AELW, I, 527. As concerns this “earthly father,” Geb or Seb, it should be recalled that another of his sons was Horus, brother of Osiris. It seems to be another “coincidence” that Jesus’s “earthly father” was named “Io-Seph,” from the root words “Ya” and “Saf” in Hebrew. (Strong’s H3254.) “Ya” is YHWH, the Jewish name for God, while “saf” means “add,” “increase” or “do again.” As Set is also Seth, could Seb have been rendered Sebh or Seph?"

- CIE, 214 fn

The bottom line is that, when the subject is actually studied, there is a logical reason to contend a correlation between the earth-god father of Horus, Seb, and the earthly father of Jesus, Joseph, as shown in the article linked above.

3) He was of royal descent
Quote:
KingDavid8.com "This one’s true! But it's not really a comparison to Jesus. When followers speak of Jesus being of 'royal descent', they usually mean His being a descendent of King David, an earthly king. Horus was, according to the myth, descended from heavenly royalty (as Jesus was), being the son of the main god."

So, KD8 concedes that this one is true but then turns right around and attempts to dismiss it afterward. Genius! He makes no sense at all - first he says that even though both of them ARE descended from royalty, he then makes a distinction that Horus's royalty is "heavenly," whereas Jesus's was only "earthly." Then in the next sentence, he says that Jesus was also descended from "heavenly royalty."

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:16 pm 
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Quote:
Isn't the Jesus story just a retelling or 'copycat' of earlier godmen stories?

KingDavid8.com "No."
Code:
http://www.kingdavid8.com/Copycat/Home.html

From there, KD8 cites his typical Christian apologist website sources such as tekton and the owner of that website has no relevant credentials whatsoever. He's just another apologist out to shore up his faith at all costs however he can.

I'd like to take a minute to discuss the copycat issue

The fact is that the parallels aren't a carbon-copy, some are closer than others. People who actually read Acharya's books understand that point. KingDavid8.com has never read a single book by Acharya S. What about the copycat theory?

The "copycat" argument is often inadvertently used as a straw man argument. The people I see making the copycat argument do so mostly out of ignorance or attempting to shore up their faith at all costs. The fact remains that there are a great many similarities of gods and savior sons of gods throughout history. That doesn't necessarily mean they are all exact carbon copies of each other. If Pagan religions worldwide were basing their religious ideas around natural phenomena such as the sun, moon, planets, stars, constellations i.e. astrotheology, then, there are going to be plenty of similarities. The differences tend to be related to environment, culture, era etc. Add to that all of the competition and borrowing of ideas between them. Still, the CONCEPTS have their foundations in astrotheology. And that's what we're talking about, borrowing similar concepts based in natural phenomena. If one is unaware that the myths were based on natural phenomena it will seem odd, mysterious and supernatural. When you know what you're looking for it becomes obvious.

The point is that the pre-xian Pagan CONCEPTS were mixed with the Jewish religion giving them a newer twist and then incorporated them into the New Testament. The Gospel authors simply read the Old Testament and used it as blueprint to invent NT prophecy and tried to make it look as historical as possible.

'Christian era' and 'pre-christian'
Quote:
"In discussing the "Christian era," it should be noted that such a period differed widely in diverse places. For example, while the Christian era in Rome began in earnest during the fourth century, with the endorsement of Constantine, the country of Lithuania remained pre-Christian until the 14th- 15th centuries. Moreover, the dating of the "Christian era" did not exist until the 6th century, when Christian monk Dionysius attempted to discern the year of Christ's birth. Hence, the idea of the "Christian era" and "pre-Christian" times depends on the location in question, and using phrases like "during the first century" is misleading in that no such division existed at the time."

- WWJ, page 111

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:27 pm 
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Here is KD8 using his e-mail correspondence with Acharya against her.

KingDavid8.com "I wrote Achara S. this E-mail"
(9/1/02)

Code:
http://www.kingdavid8.com/Letters/LetterJesusHorus.html

First of all, you'll notice that KD8 was not honest with Acharya and did not mention that he had never read her book. That was blatantly obvious to her so she pointed out that her book Christ Conspiracy was "a good place to start."

We don't appreciate people demanding to be spoon-fed while refusing to actually read the books for themselves. Due to KD8's refusal to read the books for himself he has consistently misrepresented Acharya's work throughout his website.

Quote:
KD8 "12/11/08 Someone has told me that visitors to my site have been harassing Acharya S. This person changed their story about what exactly is happening (first saying that *I* was harassing her, which I've never done), so I'm not sure whether to believe him. I did e-mail Acharya to ask her if anything like this has been happening, but she never responded. So I'll just say that it's a good idea if anyone who talks to Acharya S or any other non-Christian avoids harassing or being rude. It reflects negatively on all of us when this happens."

KD8 sent Acharya an e-mail on the above issue:
Quote:
KD8 "I'm hearing a rumor that someone who has visited my site kingdavid8. com has been harassing you. If this is true, please let me know their e-mail address and I'll ask them to stop, and also put a note on my site asking people to be respectful."

Acharya is not interested in any correspondence with kingdavid8.com as she doesn't feel he can be trusted. It was explained to me that she does get harassing e-mails from Christians using KD8's website as a weapon. She said she just deletes them or, those who are especially over the top obnoxious &/or hateful & vicious, she blocks.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:33 pm 
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I would do more but I think I've been categorically clear and readers of this thread should get the point by now. What you've seen here exposing the website KingDavid8.com is pretty much the same for the rest of the Horus list as well as all the other lists and criticisms at KingDavid8.com.

Had KD8 actually read Acharya's books first none of this would've been an issue. Armchair quarterbacks who refuse to actually read the material, meanwhile insist on endless criticism just make it more difficult for everyone. It was far more work for KD8 to create all those criticisms at his website than it would've been to just read the books first.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:38 pm 
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Well as a matter of fact I had to address Stahrwe at booktalk on this very thing. He took off trying to slander Acharya and came across KD8 on a google search. So he started posting quotes from KD8's site at which point I posted a link to this thread. I'm glad you've taken the time to put all of this together because it's quite useful whenever KD8 comes up in conversation.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:05 am 
I recently sent this e-mail to him about a month ago and never even heard a word from him.

Quote:
Hello there, I am a student of comparative mythology and was wondering exactly how you did your studies on mythology or comparative mythology to begin with? There are some certain things that I have noticed on your website which are just plain wrong and cannot be in any way shape or form correct by any stretch of the imagination considering the modern data. For example your assessment of Egyptian mythological characteristics assume an E.A. Wallis Budge stance of a linear systematic telling of the folkloric tales when in reality that is not at all true or how the system was even set up. The statement that "Horus is a sky god, not a sun god, and his life story has no significant parallels with the sun's movement. The Egyptian sun god is actually Ra," is just blatantly wrong in the statement and is ignoring the fact that the Egyptian theology and mythology went through a period of syncretism where not only the god's and deities roles, names, and epithets were interchanged between the mythological character's of the deities but that the god's themselves were also conflated, such as Osiris not only changing roles and epithets with Horus, but that he IS Horus and vice-a-versa. Which means the linear system of belief with which you ascribe to the Egyptian god Horus as being ONLY a sky-god is wrong and has been known to be wrong since the day's of E.A. Wallis Budge.

There are many other glaring errors I have noticed with your article and I was wondering if you even studied the actual literature of Egyptologists like James P. Allen, a modern translator of the Pyramid Texts, or Erik Hornung whose work is renowned throughout the academic world for his papers on ancient Egyptian mythology and particularly his one book titled Conceptions of God in Ancient Egypt? Did you consult any academic papers or academic works at all in the literature or perhaps documentaries by the BBC? What about any literature in the field of comparative mythology (which is where a lot of this stuff is actually coming from, as opposed to what you deem as "Christ-Mythers" is actually a derogatory remark by Christian Apologists to call Comparative Mythologists whenever they just apply the exact same method to Jesus as they do with other deities)? I can give you quite a good series of books which might help you to revise your assessment article's and some of the most greatest errors I have ever seen.

One thing I would appreciate for you to do is revise some of the things which I find to be very dishonest in one of your requirements for your challenge to be made:

"Versions of their stories in which we can read about them actually doing these things, provided that the stories are generally agreed-upon by scholars to be pre-Christian. This is the one I'd most like to see. If the deities are truly believed to have done these things, you would think there would be stories somewhere in which they do it."

It is interesting that you do not add iconographic assessment as these are generally what many scholar's assess to be very much exactly what they use to find an imagery to a text. There are also some versions such as a god being eaten when in fact no text shows a god being eaten... but it is shown in the iconography of let's say a temple of a vase for one example. You should revise this to include iconography for one, secondly you should define what you mean by pre-Christian... because on many accounts there are many cultures today that have yet to even hear of Christianity and they themselves can be considered pre-Christian. So you should define this for reasons of coherency...

"Any information coming from scholarly sources who are not specifically trying to prove parallels to Jesus."

This is basically a challenge which is tying someone's hand behind their back. You are basically saying that these people cannot even try and use an authority in the field of comparative mythology like Joseph Campbell and Robert M. Price just to name a few. Scholar's won't list the similarities unless they are trying to prove that there are similarities with these deities to Jesus... otherwise what would be the point of writing the similarities in the first place? This portion of the challenge basically lacks any fundamental knowledge or grasp of how the academic world works in regards to the subject of comparative mythology.

"General mythology books and websites, provided they have no Christ-myther agenda (sorry, I won't accept Wikipedia or similar forums, since there's no way to determine whether the individual doing the posting is a Christ-myther or not). If it's a book, I must be able to acquire it from my local library, or you can mail me the book or e-mail me copies of the pages in question. I won't spend my own money on it (this is to prevent someone from naming some impossible-to-find book and then calling foul on me for not going on a wild and expensive goose chase to get it - remember, I am asking YOU to provide the evidence.)"

This challenge is completely and utterly bogus for one cause nobody will or can be able to meet this requirement (as for the reasons mentioned above). Also who in the world decides if they have a "Christ-Myther agenda?" J.P. Holding? William Lane Craig? You? Besides, an agenda bias in and of itself is meaningless if you are in the realm of academic bias to begin with... what matters is the data and this requirement is inherently in and of itself engaging in what is known as the genetic fallacy, attacking the person instead of their arguments and sources.

The other problem is that apparently you are by admission by saying that you "won't spend" your "own money" on any piece of literature that someone gives you. The point of a challenge is for you to by very definition to get the book and read it. Most local libraries don't carry peer review articles on anything! What if I refer you to a peer reviewed article that you can access just for $5? You should be willing to look up the sources yourself and read them in their entirety... so you might want to revise it to being that if people recommend you a book, they should send you the link as to where to purchase it... and if it's too expensive maybe they could send you their copy. I believe this is much more reasonable and puts some honesty on your shoulder as well. You have to at least give some financial commitment to this if you are going to try and falsify their claims... especially if someone put a lot of money into their own research that exceeds the 1K prize money you are offering.

"Christian scholars who concede that the parallels are valid."

Why is this even needed? If the parallels exist they exist... this seems to me to be a very huge cop out which you can basically just point to any "Christian Scholar" (or a Christian Apologist using academic as a smoke screen to promote his own faith) who says these are not valid... because their faith by the very ramifications demand that they defend it beyond all shadow of a doubt. You should change this too "Scholar who very much agree, at least those ranging in a consensus that the parallels at least exist or are at the most valid." Either that or scratch this requirement off altogether... because it is not something that is needed and to me acts as a safety net for you to fall on for those who can readily answer your challenge.

The last think I would recommend is perhaps you getting your local churches and whatnot to pool together a money supply which might actually give a very reasonable amount. I would wager that you could raise up to about $500,000 and would get a lot of people trying to answer the challenge that already exists. To myself, I would be able to answer the challenge once I get more sources available from scholarly and academic peer review sources... its just the amount of money you have given up as a challenge really doesn't motivate me to answer it.

If you are also going to issue a challenge, you might wanna take those Christian Apologist site's off because they might to a rational person who has very much dealt with Christian Apologists (such as myself) make the site seem extremely bias (especially considering you have J.P. Holding on there, a very well known pseudointellectual Christian Apologist who lies constantly and engages in continual dishonest tactics, most of which can be found here: http://the-anointed-one.com/).

Also, a person ended up making a series of a video I would like your take on in regards to the rebuttals made against the parallels to Christianity with other religions.

http://www.youtube.com/user/GodAImighty ... C2BD16537C

That is all I have currently at the moment, I hope to hear back from you soon.

Thank you for your time

Devan Evans


Let me know what yah guy's think.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:58 am 
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He probably just read the first few lines, realized you were one of them "christ mythers" and then deleted your letter with out even reading it all.
Remember, you're being influenced by Satan, after all.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:45 pm 
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So, King D8 has sent this e-mail and requested we post it at the forum for him. I noticed that he joined the other day because he shows up in the inactivated list so, he still hasn't activated his account for whatever reason or he could've posted it himself. Though, I'm not interested in having another troll here, fair warning - trolling will not be tolerated.
Quote:
Fw: Freethought Nation: Critique of KingDavid8.com

Hi, there. FreeThinkaluva22 wrote a criticism of my website back in April, which I just found out about yesterday. I've written a response to his critique at
Code:
http://www.kingdavid8.com/FreeThought.html

Could you let him know about it?

Thanks, David

I have not yet read his response.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:15 pm 
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Hopefully KD8 will go ahead and try communicating here with us on a non-troll basis so we can get a few things straight and perhaps collect on the $1,000 prize that Acharya should have won several times over already for citations that she's already put in her books many times over. :lol: Why hasn't she been paid yet KD8? Is it because you have no intention of paying up? We'll just have to see won't we. I would enjoy hearing from you on this.

And further more as a general point of interest, as I was reading through KD8's recents rebuttle to this thread, I came across a rather interesting but not very well thought apology that he's just made in response to FTL in the above post. From KD8's website the below claim has already been made:

KD8 wrote:
"Horus’ mother was not a virgin. She was married to Osiris, and there is no reason to suppose she was abstinent after marriage."

Now FTL responded to the above claim from KD8's website here on this thread by pointing out that:
FTL wrote:
The Pyramid Texts speak of “the great virgin” (Hwn.t wr.t) three times (682c, 728a, 2002a, cf. 809c)"

So now KD8 has just now responded back publically by saying:
Quote:
Hwn.t can mean "virgin", but it can also mean simply "young woman" or "maiden". So which does it mean when applied to Isis? Well, since in all versions of the story on which she gives birth to Horus, Osiris is considered to be the father, then obviously it doesn't mean "virgin".


My question to KD8 - if he does get around to joining us in discussion here - is whether or not he's viewed GodAlmighty's new video series about the evolution of Osiris to Christ and the issue of what in particular is a "virgin" or "maiden" when all is said and done? KD8 is more than welcome to view all of the videos and the entire discussion on this thread link: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3548&start=0




Well KD8, any thoughts now :?: :?: :?:

GodAlmighty does have $1000 dollars coming right now doesn't he? You are going to make good on your word after all aren't you? God isn't very fond of liars from what I've read on the issue. And further more, 'what would Jesus think?'
:lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:12 pm 
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^ I actually went over many of the fallacies in the arguments over translations in the most recent episode, and I will continue in this week's episode as well, which I will link below.

But basically, to this David fellow, your above statements can be addressed as follows:

Quote:
Hwn.t can mean "virgin", but it can also mean simply "young woman" or "maiden".


So can Almah, Bethulah, and Parthenos, all three of the words translated as "virgin" in our English bibles. All three of these words can and HAVE been translated as "virgin", AND "young woman", AND "maiden", AND "damsels", etc.(with parthenos in particular it is translated as maiden and such in non-biblical literature, like in the Illiad, etc.)

And this is no problem at all because, as I also point out in my videos, all of these words are listed as synonyms in many of our English dictionaries and thesauruses.

What do we call it when a 'virgin' ship pops its cherry out at sea? The MAIDEN voyage.

Same goes for "lass", it is also listed as a synonym to virgin and maiden in many dictionaries and such, which I cite in the videos.(I mention this since Allen's translation of the Pyramid Texts uses "lass" for hwn.t, while Faulkner uses "maiden", Mercer used "damsel", and Botterweck used "virgin". All are synonyms, and all are just fine and mean the same thing in this context. BTW, the "great virgin" when used in the Pyramid Texts refers to Nut, Osiris's mom, not to Isis, Isis is referred to as the great virgin in other sources. I explained that in the videos as well).

And in my next video coming up, I will be posting several citations from christian literature in which Mary is repeatedly referred to as "maiden" and "damsel" in reference to her status as a virgin, calling her a maiden before, now, and always, etc., etc., clearly referencing the doctrine of her perpetual virginity, yet using the term "maiden".

Quote:
So which does it mean when applied to Isis?


As Botterweck already told us- virgin. It means virgin when applied to Isis.

Quote:
Well, since in all versions of the story on which she gives birth to Horus, Osiris is considered to be the father, then obviously it doesn't mean "virgin".


Jehovah is considered to be Jesus's father, so by your logic, Mary had sexual intercourse with Jehovah and so was not a virgin mother. You have committed the special pleading fallacy.

Code:
"Horus’ mother was not a virgin. She was married to Osiris, and there is no reason to suppose she was abstinent after marriage."


Another case of special pleading, because the gospel of Matthew twice refers to Joseph as Mary's husband. So since, as you say, "there is no reason to suppose she was abstinent after marriage", then Jesus' "mother was not a virgin".(BTW, ἀνήρ is used 215 times in the New Testament and is never once used in reference to a "fiance" :wink: )

But of course, we know this to be inaccurate since Mary explicitly stated she had never known a man.

Likewise, Isis explicitly stated at the temple of Seti I in Abydos that she is the Great Virgin, and this was after she already gave birth to Horus since Horus is depicted fully grown on that same wall.

BTW, you are also making the mistake of generalizing Isis as though there was only one version of her myths.

Some versions have her as a virgin mother, other versions, like those recorded by Plutarch, have her copulating with Osiris.

Fact remains, the version that has her being a virgin existed for over a thousand years BEFORE Christianity, and for several centuries before the book of Isaiah existed.

Many versions of the Mary mythology have her engaging in sex to conceive Jesus, some have her copulating with Jehovah, some with Gabriel, some with Joseph, etc.

Fact remains, there still does exist a version in which Mary was a virgin mother. The existence of alternative versions does not negate this, and the same is the case with the alternate versions of the myths of Isis.


The first of two videos in which I deal with alleged arguments over translations of ancient words used for "virgin" as relevant to this discussion. Those of course being- hwn.t, almah, bethulah, and parthenos.



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:58 pm 
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Good points, all. And here's some more, from Acharya. She's talking about this article here:

Neith, Virgin Mother of the World

Quote:
Critics continually reveal that they possess a very shallow understanding and little knowledge of the subject at hand and should therefore not be considered "experts" of any sort. For example, on the issue of the virgin birth, Christian defenders rant about pretended distinctions between the words "virgin," "maid" and "young woman," all the while treating a mythical motif as if it were a historical fact. They display no comprehension whatsoever of the ancient mythical concept of parthenogenesis, as widely discussed by scholars behind the walls of academia and above the heads of the masses.

Despite all the noisy dissension, the fact will remain that the idea of a Parthenogenetic Creatrix - a VIRGIN MOTHER - predates Christianity by eons. Possibly more than 5,000 years in fact, in the mythology surrounding the very ancient Egyptian goddess Neith. This concept will likely go above the heads of those who continually wish to make the Virgin Mother into a mortal Jewish woman, but these are the facts, and once they are understood, an elegant and sensible mythical motif reveals its glorious self to the world.

For more on the issue of the Virgin Mother of the World who dates back many thousands of years prior the Christian imitation of same, please see the following article:

Neith the Virgin Mother of the World
http://truthbeknown.com/neith.html

Image

Note that Neith is a form of Isis, and that through this common motif of a parthenogenetic creatrix, the issue of Isis's virginity is settled. We are discussing MYTHS here, not human women with body parts. The fact will remain that it has been discerned or depicted from remotest antiquity that "God" was a female who could create out of herself, without the assistance of a male. Undoubtedly, that is likewise how many ancient cultures at first viewed the mortal woman's ability to procreate, although I'm sure the smarter among them could have figured it out. Nevertheless, the female virginal creator is an understandable concept.

As I say, once you "get it," it's an elegant and sensible concept, albeit one that may require higher intelligence. Those who do not "get it" need to stop pretending to be experts on this subject. They are not.

To reiterate, Neith is a form of Isis and the motif of her as the "great virgin" as mentioned here: "The Pyramid Texts speak of 'the great virgin' (Hwn.t wr.t) three times (682c, 728a, 2002a, cf. 809c)," from the book, Christ in Egypt page 152, is referring to a concept that goes back 7,000 years at least. It's not just Neith but many other goddesses who are manifestation of this ancient virgin-mother idea, including Isis, Neith's alter ego.

Considering these facts, we know exactly what the Egyptian word hwn.t means: VIRGIN, as in procreating without the assistance or need of a male. It's an old pre-Christian mythical motif - get over it. And pay up.

Oh, and my condolences to you, KingDavid8, for being taken in by this Jewish fairytale based on older mythical motifs.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:07 pm 
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And one of the main reasons I posted the two videos was to make it very clear to KD8 that even in the variant where there is sexual depiction between Osiris and Isis, its the Ba which is doing the activity, not the body of Isis. It's a depiction of virgin birth via the Ba receiving the seed in some way, nearly identical to Mary's immaculate conception of Jesus.

There's no way out of this submission hold KD8!!! You've been pinned down immediately as of trying to set foot in this particular arena of the mythicist community. I don't know who these "Christ Mythers" are that you keep referring to on your website - perhaps Carrier and his lot - but you're certainly not referring to those of us in support of DM Murdock here at her forums!!! These "Christ Mythers" have your number as we've just made public display of with very little effort. It's time to start paying up as you've promised...

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:44 pm 
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Quote:
UPDATE 12/13/10: I see that a link to this page has been added to the Free Thought Nation forum where the critique appeared. I've also tried to register at the forum, but my request was "accidentally deleted", and they asked me to re-register. I've done so, but they haven't confirmed it yet. It's odd, though, that people in the forum seem to be trying to engage me in conversation, as if they think I've been registered.

Referring to you in 2nd person=/=think you have a registered account here.

You were referred to in 2nd person because the people here know full well there's a high probability that you'll see it, sooner or later, as well as a high probability that you will reply, if not here, then perhaps on your own site or somewhere else. A dialogue doesn't have to be, by analogy, "face-to-face", it can be done through the phone or various other mediums.

I also noticed your update here has removed the part it had earlier in which you wrote that if you to get registered, then we can expect to see you replying in this thread.

So... shall we take that to mean we can no longer expect such a thing? Or that it is simply no longer a guarantee and you will just roll around here if you happen to feel like it, i.e., if "the lord tells you to"?

Ahhh... I remember the days when I equated god's audible voice to a personal feeling occurring inside my body, just as every other christian I ever knew also did.

Just too bad for all of us, the bible itself NEVER makes such an equation. Every instance in which it describes someone as explicitly "hearing" god, or being "spoken" to by god, or the like, it is ALWAYS an audible voice. A clear, distinct audible voice. Sometimes in visions, sometimes in dreams, sometimes in their "real" life, but they always HEARD it, with their ears, not just 'feeling' it in their spirit.

Even that misquote christians often throw around "you gotta listen to that still small voice INSIDE". Inside? That's not what the bible says. Doesn't say Elijah "felt" the lord tell him something. He HEARD that still small voice. He didn't just "feel" that there was a wind, earthquake, or fire. He WITNESSED these things literally happen. Stands no reason why it wasn't also a literal "still, small voice".

Everybody gets "feelings". Not everyone hears the voice of "god".


Anyway, I don't know why I went on that rant. A bit off topic, but... whatever. I guess I just "felt" like I needed to address that. Maybe I was being "moved by the holy spirit" to do so.

This is not to say for sure that David is one of these types of "feelings=voiceofgod" christians, but if he isn't, then he is the one and only exception I've ever come across.


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