Freethought Nation

And, as is outlined in CiE, the book of John seems to be written specifically for an Egyptian audience at that - driving it home even harder. This really breaks down to a no brainer in the end. And the context is coming from the story of Lazarus / Osiris when the 12 hours of day and night are mentioned to Jesus 12 disciples. It's too bad that so many aspiring skeptics and apologists fail to look into these issues very closely before going on record, publicly, trying to deny that the parallels exist.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

Yep. Unfortunately, with the way the majority of xtians are taught to read the bible(selectively), they never notice things like that which are totally out of context if read as a historical account. When read in context, that passage makes no sense and seems like an off-the-wall kind of statement, but, when you read it in light of the Egyptian texts, as we have shown here, it makes complete sense as to why the author placed that statement in there. And as you pointed out, the entire gospel, and, well, the entire New Testament is full of these kind of things.

Even within the mindset of christianity, it seems like putting the cart before the horse when they convert people BEFORE they even know what they are converting to, i.e., they win converts before they've even read the entire bible or at least the entire New Testament. They cherry pick shit like John 3:16, and most christians will never read beyond that, at least on their own. They just read the passages their pastors and/or Sunday school teachers select for that day's lesson, or the passage in their daily devotional journals, etc., so most of them, even the pastors themselves, are never exposed to the entire story of the bible in context from front to back.

And to bring this back on topic, if they were familiar with the entire bible instead of just the generic themes you can fit on a bumper sticker, they'd see a lot more of the parallels with the pagan predecessors instead of making excuses like "well, you'd expect to find such similarities in all religions, that's a broad generalization", etc.

Like how you have to become one with Osiris in order to partake in his resurrection and have everlasting life, how is that any different than all the talk in the New Testament of how you have to become one with Christ, and how he lives in you, and you have to partake in his death and resurrection, etc.? It isn't. But since most christians aren't familiar with that, the parallel isn't apparent to them, and so they assert that there are no "real" parallels. Most of them are just taught that all you do is accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior, that's it, and are not exposed to the deeper theology of "salvation" in their scriptures.

Man, the first time I read Allen & Mercer's translations of the pyramid texts, I was blown away(yep, even omniscient folks can be surprised) by how many phrases I saw that were reminiscent of biblical material, and not just generic stuff like afterlife, I mean really specific stuff. Sure, there was a lot of stuff that was not in the bible as well, but there were just too many similarities to be coincidence, and too specific to be "painting with broad strokes".

And just look at the context of John 3:16 itself. It screams of the Egyptian religion of resurrection and afterlife. Especially the idea of a bodily resurrection. In the Lazarus myth we have Osiris, the sisters Isis and Nephthys, and Horus and the 12 helpers all present and accounted for in a book written specifically for the purpose of proselytizing an Egyptian audience. At least with all of the exposure on the Internet nowadays more and more people are catching on.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

Good stuff, Tat. Keep going! So glad to see other people catching onto these interesting insights. Once one has studied the subject in a decent amount of detail, things like this just jump out at you.

The double whammy is that the ancient Egyptians who became Christians themselves noticed these correspondences. How could they not, if they were made specifically for them as the audience? The early Coptic and Egyptian Gnostic traditions are full of these correlations - they are no brainers to them. In fact, they would likely have been surprised to see the Egyptian and Christian figures separated out from each other as modern believers do. In other words, the absolute separation came long after the figures had been created initially as hybrids.

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Why suffer from Egyptoparallelophobia, when you can read Christ in Egypt? Try it - you'll like it:

That makes sense. And we know that the Egyptians had been subject to this sort of hybridizing starting with the Greeks. They had no problem accepting Serapis, or even Kore and Aion. They seemed to just understand what the hybrids represent and move along with them. So by the time these gospel hybridizations hit the scene in the second century the Egyptians had a long history of accepting hybridized versions of the Egyptian mythos and seemed to accept it with open arms. They could see right through to Osiris, Isis and Nepthys, Horus, and the 12 hours of day and night when confronted with the gospel of John.



In one of the quotes offered earlier it was mentioned that the 12 goddesses are the 12 nocturnal hours of the suns journey.



That makes sense because they face the crocodile as Set over the grave of Osiris. And the 12 helpers of Horus are facing him. So the 12 of Horus depicted here would then be the 12 hours of day starting with the rising sun, the rising Horus, and then extending on to the 12 hours of the night facing the other direction. What else? There isn't 24 hours of night. And in the Lazarus myth we find Jesus pointing to the hours of the day as 12 in number, to his 12 disciples, who are all basically facing him likewise.



So really, how could an Egyptian familiar with Horus miss that?

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

Excellent catch there. Since the 12 hours of the day are those representing the rising sun, they would be exemplary of resurrection. Of course, if the Egyptians were singularly focused on this spiritual meme dealing with the afterlife - which they were - then, in order to usurp their worship, precisely this sort of scripture would need to be included in the newly minted hybrid religion.

As we know, when the sun moves into the underworld of the night, it becomes the lord there, i.e., Osiris, who also represents the deceased. Without the sun entering into the netherworld, the Osiris would have no light in him. Truly the light of the resurrection is the sun.

That's a really great telltale clue there, Tat, about the Egyptian nature of the gospel of John. I could write a whole book just about that subject as well!



Re Serapis, the transition from him to Osiris-Horus-Jesus was nearly seamless, just a bit of renaming here and there (recall that Serapis too was likely called "christos"), along with adding this and that attribute. And there's another book that could be written! Each of these topics merits a relatively shorter treatment, something like 150-300 pages.

And yes, the vast experience of the Egyptians, as well as the Greeks, Romans and numerous others around the Mediterranean and beyond, in amalgamating deities, taking attributes from one and adding them to another, is a precedent long set - and expected!

_________________
Why suffer from Egyptoparallelophobia, when you can read Christ in Egypt? Try it - you'll like it:

Needless to say, the motif of Horus and the 12 is a factual part of the Horus mythos despite all of the skepticism. And I can see how an entire book could come from dissecting the gospel of John for it's Egyptian content.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

I've just referenced this thread in a debate over Leonardo da Vinci's use of the sun and twelve signs of the zodiac in his painting The Last Supper.

http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php ... ost1877239


The situation here is analogous to the paradigm shift from geocentric to heliocentric cosmology. From a simplistic view it seems the sun orbits the earth. A more analytical and systematic study is required to see the error of this naive assumption. Once the heliocentric model is understood, its parsimony and elegance means the geocentric attitude looks absurd. But those who held to the previous paradigm refused to look carefully at the evidence of their error. In the case of the Last Supper, the older view is that it is just a literal and historical rendering of a Biblical story. The new view is that it explains the Bible story as an allegory for actual natural observation.

In The Last Supper, Leonardo uses the widely established motif of Christ and the twelve apostles as symbols of the sun and twelve months of the year, symbolised by the signs of the zodiac. This is a theme that goes back to ancient mythology, for example with Horus and twelve followers in Egypt. The idea of having twelve months, rather than thirteen or some other number, approximates closely to the division of each of the four seasons in three moons. Seeing how this motif continued in Christian iconography, for example in prominent stained glass windows of major cathedrals, indicates an ongoing tradition that saw the symbolism of the twelve followers as representing the annual natural cycle of the earth.

While this tradition was suppressed by the orthodox denial of allegorical meaning, it is entirely congruent with the Hermetic outlook that was recovered by major thinkers in the Italy of Leonardo's day, and with which he was clearly familiar. For example, Marsilio Ficino (1433–99) was one of the most influential humanist philosophers of the early Italian Renaissance. Hermetic philosophy was a significant advance over the thought of the middle ages, because it sought to explain popular symbols by seeing them as representations of natural observation. Hermetic thought was an important staging post on the path to modern astronomy, and was keenly studied by major astronomers such as Kepler and Newton. Leonardo rejected the magical content of Hermetic thought, but in this painting and others (The Baptism of Christ, Saint Jerome), he used the Hermetic idea 'as above so below' to represent major popular symbols by their corresponding astronomical patterns.

If you study the explanations I have given of each apostle against the shape of their respective star maps, the fact is that it is quite easy to find each constellation embedded within the corresponding apostle. By portraying Christ as Pisces, Leonardo uses the actual position of the sun at the spring equinox, in a way that is entirely congruent with his use of the zodiac stars for the twelve followers, and with the traditional allegory of Christ as the Sun. Other explanations lack the elegance and parsimony of this account, especially considering its congruence with ancient secret traditions that had again become prominent in Leonardo's day, and with Leonardo's own focus on detailed observation of nature.

My explanation is purely a result of systematic observation. If you could point to any one of the thirteen figures and argue that the precise angles of the corresponding stars do not appear in it in the predicted order, you would be able to argue that I am just biased. However, as I explained again in greater detail in my most recent post, all the figures prominently contain the expected patterns.

Okay, this was just too good to pass up, and this is the place to post it since this is THE thread that has absolutely DESTROYED this particular argument, before it was ever even posted.

So I don't know if any of you guys remember Dudekin, who used to post here & make videos supporting Acharya a couple of years ago.
http://www.youtube.com/user/dudekin

Well, when I had a youtube channel, I was subscribed to him. I went back to his channel today just to see if there were any updates I've missed over the last year, and I saw that in his channel's comments, the following was posted a few weeks ago by none other than our old friend...

Keith Thompson-




Did Keith and Chris really miss this thread while doing their research? Or are they just not the level of researcher they'd like to think themselves to be, since they let this page slip through the cracks? Or, did they come across it, but just didn't give a f**k, and decided to go ahead and lie anyway(true to form)?

But even this thread aside, had they actually diligently searched for the truth about that picture instead of engaging in confirmation bias, they would've have gotten the same information we did anyway. And like I said, maybe they did get it, but just opted to lie or remain obstinate to it regardless.

That sad boy is one of the most dishonest and poorly educated individuals I've ever come across on the internet, while Chris White comes in right behind him. It's just a pathetic reflection of the lowly state of humanity that these two mendacious and highly ignorant individuals can garner so many followers, who themselves are certainly quite rabid and badly educated.

"...she was caught by the scholars?" "The scholars?" Which scholars would those be? "Caught" me how? "Deceived by a liar?" Notice how his suspicious mind always thinks everyone else is up to no good. Such immediate suspicion of malevolence and shadiness would be a reflection of how he himself operates.

As we can see from the discussion in this very thread, the only people "caught" doing anything are those who ignorantly deny the abundant TWELVE motif of the Egyptian religion, including in which Horus is enthroned with twelve male FOLLOWERS facing him, as well as the scenes in which he is leading TWELVE drowned souls to their salvation.



Note that I've left the imagery to the right, so we can clearly see the division here. Here is the original, from Hornung's Valley of the Kings (138):



As you know well from all the images you've previously linked, Egyptian wall imagery often contains quite a few different scenes, in a linear fashion. That's how they did things, but it doesn't mean that these divisions aren't clearly delineated. As we likewise know from the texts cited here repeatedly, the divisions are most certainly made by TWELVES.

The denial of this motif to the point of slandering and libeling others with lies and inaccuracies is a reflection of utter ignorance and a complete lack of integrity, which these characters have displayed continually. These "experts" with their pretentious videos haven't even READ the texts I carefully cite - not being competent in any way, shape or form to do so - and their ignorance is clearly reflected by their ridiculous and fallacious remarks.

What is disappointing, of course, is that this "dudekin" person would entertain even for a moment anything coming from of this disturbed individual, especially when I have spent countless hours poring through difficult texts in a variety of languages, including Egyptian, in order to PROVE the Horus-Jesus contentions in a nearly 600-page book. After all that, he doesn't even defend me against these vile charges of "deceit" and "lying" from an individual who has been shown repeatedly in the past to be very deluded and unbalanced. What a shame! I often have to wonder why I bother doing what I do.

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Why suffer from Egyptoparallelophobia, when you can read Christ in Egypt? Try it - you'll like it:

Amen & amen!

And besides the twelve in the water, on the middle tier, to our right, is yet another group of twelve, three sets of four, four who look to be guardians, with sun disks for heads, then four human 'guardians'[?], and then four human 'servants'[?] who look to be carrying trays of something. But this panel alone is just one of many throughout the Amduat hours with countless groups of twelve.



Hey, chin up there. I for one appreciate the hell out of what you do, and if for no other reason, you bother doing what you do for people like me, as it was your works that played a MAJOR role in my deconversion from xianity. So keep on truckin' Acharya, and "remain steadfast unto the end".

One of those lines is from Hebrews 3:14, but I'm having trouble finding the classical source for the other one.

This whole question of the twelve has to be put in context. The Sumerian-Babylonian sexagesimal counting system appears to be foundational for the 24 hours of the day and the twelve months of the year, and possibly for the traditional 25920 years of the Great Year. I'm not sure how much Egypt learned from Babylon, but the Egyptian system of twelve months plus five epagomenal days in the vague year is very ancient, and Herodotus said “the Egyptians first brought into use the names of the twelve gods, which the Greeks took over from them.” (CIE p263).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_a ... ient_Egypt says "the 365 day period of the Egyptian calendar was already in use at the beginning of Egyptian history." So the movement of the sun (Horus-Ra) through twelve months of thirty days each, understood by Gnostics as the allegorical basis for Jesus and the twelve, has extreme antiquity as the divine framework of Maat.

Murdock sets out the Egyptian origins of the twelve apostles in some detail, citing Massey’s observation that “the twelve of Horus” are found millennia before Christ. So, it is hardly surprising that this motif found its way into early theology, and that Clement and Irenaeus found it necessary to attack the ‘heresy’ that the twelve disciples are symbols of the twelve signs of the zodiac. As so often happened, this material in the Fathers caused a brain explosion among later pietists, who censored from view even the fact that the orthodox found it necessary to talk about such a topic. Clement’s statement that “according to the Valentinian Gnostics, ‘the apostles replaced the signs of the zodiac, for as birth is governed by the stars, rebirth is governed by the apostles’” (CIE p262) was therefore deleted from Dark Age editions of his works.

I suppose some people are just trying to keep the Dark Ages alive today.

(Found it!)

Thanks, guys. Those individuals certainly validate Col. Robert G. Ingersoll's observation here:

_________________
Why suffer from Egyptoparallelophobia, when you can read Christ in Egypt? Try it - you'll like it:

Turns out, the third option. I've recently watched his new video, and Chris actually quotes you at around 1:00:00 as saying:



Of course, Chris provides no source for this quote whatsoever, and leaves off what GodAlmighty went onto say, which is:



Apparently Chris is guilty of "cutting off" something, and it is especially telling that he provided no link to the source.

At first, I thought that Chris had somehow missed this post, and I also thought he didn’t show the complete picture with the “24” people in it because he didn’t have access to it. Now I see I was wrong on both assumptions. He’s certainly seen this thread, and he could have shown the complete picture if he wanted to. After all, wouldn’t that just strengthen his case? Unless he knew it obviously wouldn’t.

The fact that Chris provides no source for the quote and doesn’t even say who said it shows his level of deception. Anything in the name of “the lord” I suppose.

_________________
"Zeitgeist Refuted" Debunked and Exposed

So, I've been quote-mined. Should I feel honored? Meh. He definitely missed the point, and himself cherry picked my posts.
Someone should enlighten him to the fact that-
"disparate" =/= "close affiliation",
in fact, those two things are quite the opposite of each other, hence my post remains perfectly consistent, while it is White himself that is attempting to rewrite some history here, in a manner of speaking. And btw, "disparate" is the word I used, not "separate". Slight yet significant difference there, but whatever.

His proposed defense against the innumerable instances of these gods with groups of twelve(and often together, so no, like I said, they are not disparate) is that there are other instances of these gods with groups of other numbers. This is something I don't recall any of us having ever denied, and I myself certainly never did, and btw, on that point, he was very slick in trying to lump Acharya and myself and those of us on this board all together as though we all speak for Acharya or vice-versa or something to that effect. In fact, I for one do not recall myself ever having stated that Horus had "twelve disciples", just groups of twelve. I even went back and did a word search on my posts here just to be thorough, and sure enough nothing came up. Anyway, even some of those other numbers, while I can't attest to every number, some of those other numbers also seem to be symbols of various things, some astronomical or divisions of time, etc., such as 14 correlating with the days between full moon and new moon(as per Plutarch), or 9 correlating with the Ennead, and so on. And as I've said, the number 12 isn't arbitrary either, as some of the scholarly citations I've given before confirm, the recurrence of 12 here in the Amduat hours represent the 12 hours of night & 12 hours of day. Hell, the Amduat is divided into TWELVE sections for that very reason, as anyone familiar with texts on the matter is aware. Twelve is not happenstance, it's intentional.

And btw, those four "disciples" Chris speaks of are most likely Horus's four SONS(Pyr.Texts Utt.580:1548), as I have never heard of him having four disciples explicitly by that word any more than I have heard of him stated to have had twelve "disciples" explicitly by that word(<now there's a statement that's sure to get quote-mined out of context, lol). However, I've read and seen several instances of Horus having four sons, so, while I'm not certain atm, I am quite confident in guessing that this is actually what Chris had in mind. So he's either mistaken and is himself just cherry picking a disparate element of Horus to try and throw into the discussion here, or he has no problem considering "sons" to be "disciples", so why is he harping on anyone for pointing out the twelve gods and twelve goddesses in the picture, just like Hornung and other Egyptologists already did before any of us ever did? If "sons" can be called "disciples" by Chris, why can "gods" not be called "disciples" by Murdock(assuming that's actually what she even said).

Chris's proposed defense there I just mentioned earlier is not sufficient, since the same could be stated of Jesus or OT motifs.
Chris continued to assert that it was a cut off picture of 24, even though we already proved beyond any possibility of rebuttal that it was a group of twelve gods with Horus, and a distinct group of twelve goddesses with the crocodile, facing the opposite direction of the twelve gods, and scholars like Hornung confirmed as much.
Chris is arguing against the evidence & parsimony. His argumentation is just as ridiculous as if someone brought up Matthew 19:28 to show Jesus has 12 disciples who will sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes, but then Chris comes along and tries to use Revelation 4:4 & 10 to say that this is wrong and Jesus actually has 24 disciples who will sit on 24 thrones, so no 12 disciples, it's 24 and anyone citing Matthew 19:28 is cutting the number off.
That of course would be ridiculous. In fact, if there even is a correlation between Matt 19:28 & Rev 4:4,10, most bible commentaries I've read say there are twenty-four thrones because there is some other group of 12, perhaps 12 patriarchs or something to that effect. So two distinct groups of twelve. There being 24 thrones in Rev 4:4 does NOT nullify that Matt 19:28 says twelve, nor does Matt 19:28 deny, or prohibit the possibility of, there being another group of 12 as well. Matthew 19:28 is not "cutting off" anything.

So, as I said a moment ago, the same thing Chris tried can be done with Jesus. Jesus can be shown to have twelve disciples. He can also be shown to have had seventy followers, or seventy-two based on certain manuscripts. Acts 1:15 says he had up to 120 followers at Pentecost after his ascension. Matthew 17:1 and 26:37 depict him with three disciples. John 21:2 depicts him with seven disciples. Yet John 12:19 says his followers included "the whole world"(NIV).

This same thing can be done with the Old Testament. Sure there were(to borrow another's list)...

The 12 Princes of Ishmael,
The 12 Sons of Jacob,
The 12 Tribes of Israel,
The 12 Prophets and Kings of Israel,
The 12 Wells of Water,
The 12 Pillars of the Lord,
The 12 Stones of the Breastplate,
The 12 Cakes of the Tabernacle,
The 12 Princes of Israel,
The 12 Oxen of the Tabernacle,
The 12 Chargers of Silver, Bowls of Silver and Spoons of Gold,
The 12 Bullocks, Rams, Lambs and Kids of the Offering,
The 12 Rods of the Princes of Israel,
The 12 Stones of Joshua,
The 12 Cities,
The 12 Judges of Israel,
The 12 Pieces of the Concubine,
The 12 Servants of David,
The 12 Officers of Solomon,
The 12 Lions of Solomon,
The 12 Pieces of Jeroboam‘s Garment,
The 12 Stones of Elijah,
The 12 Bronze Bulls of Solomon,

but there were also...

The 7 days of the week,
The 7 fold vengence of Cain,
The 7 pairs of clean animals boarding the ark,
The 7 days til the rain began,
The 7th month when the ark rested on Ararat,
The 7 lambs Abraham gave to Abimelek,
The 7 years Jacob worked for Leah and then Rachel,
The 7 times Jacob bowed to Esau,
The 7 cows and 7 ears of corn in Pharoah's dream,
The 7 years of plenty then the 7 years of famine,
The 7 daughters of Jethro, priest of Midian,
The 7th year of liberation for Hebrew slaves,
The 7 days of the Feast of Unleavened bread,
The 7 candlesticks of the Menorah,
The 7 altars of Balaam,
The 7 braids of Samson's hair,

etc., etc., etc.,
as well as...

The 70 nations descended from the sons of Noah,
The 70 of Jacob that went into Egypt
The 70 days of mourning for Jacob(also the number of days for mummification, coincidentally),
The 70 palm trees at Elim,
The 70 elders under Moses,
The 70 shekels of measurement,
The 70 kings under Adoni-Bezek,
The 70 sons of Jerub-Baal,
The 70 thousand who died in David's plague,
The 70 bulls sacrificed under Hezekiah,
The 70 years in Babylon,
The 70 weeks of Daniel's prophecy,
The 70 translators of the Septuagint,

etc., etc., etc.,

or...

The 40 days of rain during the flood,
The 40 years of age when Isaac married Rebekah,
The 40 years of Esau when he married Judith,
The 40 cows Jacob gave to Esau,
The 40 years in the wilderness,
The 40 days Moses was up on Sinai,
The 40 silver bases for the tabernacle,
The 40 days of surveying Canaan,
The 40 thousand soldiers that crossed the Jordan on over to Jericho,
The 40 years of peace under Othniel,
The 40 years under the Philistines,
The 40 years David was a king,

etc., etc., etc.

There are several other recurring numbers in the Bible, and each with their own alleged typological or prophetic significance. Yet the existence and significance of one of these numbers, does not nullify the existence and significance of another.

Just because Jesus had 70 or 72 followers, does this mean he did NOT have twelve disciples?
Of course not.
Does it mean someone is singling out an insignificant arbitrary number by referring to "twelve" disciples?
Of course not.
Does the fact that there are several other numbers of typological/prophetic significance in the Old Testament nullify the doctrine that the number of twelve disciples was most likely influenced by the twelve tribes of Israel or even all the other occurrences of twelve in the Old Testament?
Of course not.
And nor would the same be true of any other possible sources of influence on either the Old or New Testament just because it has several other repeating typological numbers besides just twelve. Those other numbers do not nullify or downplay the significance of twelve that this other potential source of influence still had, and did have even before the Old Testament was ever even written.

Also, Chris said the curator debunked Acharya(or something to that effect), even though we had already showed that the curator was mistaken, and we did so with scholarly sources as well as the primary source.
Yet Chris also continued to follow suit from her and refer to the god there as Ra-Horakhty when I had showed translations of the god's name there, which was "Horus, master of the stars and hours", NOT "Horus of the two horizons"(Horakhty). And Ra's name doesn't come up at all right there.

Try and ignore the number twelve in the following few examples(of many) or argue that the number has no special significance here. To do so would be to resist Occam's razor, just as it would be to argue against the significance of twelve in the Bible-












Oh, here is a depiction of Jesus with only... seven disciples?




Or only five?




Or here with just three?




And here again with only three!




Yet here with only ONE!



But then here he is depicted with a multitude!



So therefore, following Chris's [il]logic, those depictions of Jesus with other numbers of people render any significance of this depiction of Jesus with twelve null & void, and thus references to Jesus with twelve are just Christians cherry picking texts or images of Jesus with an arbitrary number that has no biblical/typological significance whatsoever.