source:
Quote:
http://www.ivorytowermetaphysics.com/?p=437
Title Blurb
Quote:
Esoteric and godless musings from a locked away sage.
Title of Post:
Quote:
Mistakes Skeptics Make When Citing History
Quote:
Zeitgeist (the movie) shows that Jesus just recycled gods pasted together.
Zeitgeist is based on bad scholarship and conspiracy thinking. It, like the list of gods in The God Who Wasn’t There and Bill Maher’s Religulious, draws this bad scholarship from long debunked Christ mythicists from the 19th century, such as Kersey Graves (1813-1883 CE), Gerald Massey (1829-1907 CE), and Edward Carpenter (1844-1929 CE). Many of the gods commonly mentioned (such as Horus), were nothing like Jesus. This is a shame because TGWWT features Robert M Price and Richard Carrier (though their parts in the movie are well argued). Both these men are great scholars in their own right and you would be much better off reading their books instead.
notes:
If you would like to learn about Galileo’s trial, you can read about it in great detail in James Hannam’s The Genesis of Science (link) or in passing in Michael Shermer’s The Believing Brain (link). If you would like to learn about what actually happened at the Scopes Trial, you can do so in Michael Shermer’s Why People Believe Weird Things (link). If you would like to learn about ancient religion from a reliable source, Sarah Johnston’s Religions of the Ancient World (link) is a good starting point.
Observations:
Quote:
Zeitgeist is based on bad scholarship and conspiracy thinking. It, like the list of gods in The God Who Wasn’t There and Bill Maher’s Religulious, draws this bad scholarship from long debunked Christ mythicists from the 19th century, such as Kersey Graves (1813-1883 CE), Gerald Massey (1829-1907 CE), and Edward Carpenter (1844-1929 CE).
Unfortunately the author fails to mention who debunked these mythicist [Gerald Massey whom Robert M Price refers to as "These are the classic Christ-Mythicists" in particular] and where readers could find this information. At this juncture it is worth mentioning what Earl Doherty said on this matter:
Alleged Scholarly Refutations of Jesus Mythicism
“http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/CritiquesRefut1.htm”
“http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/ChallengingDoherty.htm”
. I would be the first to admit that we have learned tonnes more since these writers wrote.Does this new knowledge provide evidence that the core arguments of these writers were wrong? Does the new evidence continually supports the mythicist contention? Is there now an irrefutable amount of artifacts and documents that the Jesus as described in the New Testament existed? What other works have been published since this documentary was made? Have you checked the subsequently published
“Zeitgeist Sourcebook” ?
http://www.truthbeknown.com/zeitgeistsources.htmlhttp://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/z ... cebook.pdf [111 pages]
If you do you can then point out all the “bad scholarship” in these sources. Earl Doherty as recently written a 800 page book on the subject [not that mere page count matters]:
Jesus: Neither God Nor Man – The Case for a Mythical Jesus by Earl Doherty.
Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ – D.M Murdock
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection 500+ pages – D.M Murdock [mentioned below]
amongst others.
Will would be critics read these books? That depends on the critics. I read for myself and make up my own mind.
Maybe, just maybe! this debunking and examples of bad scholarship[with regards to the mythicist position] can be found in the “reliable source” that the author points to – “Sarah Johnston’s Religions of the Ancient World is a good starting point”
I have not read the book so reserve conclusion as to what is contained but the book is on my “Reading List”.
Quote:
Many of the gods commonly mentioned (such as Horus), were nothing like Jesus.
Why do you say that?
How do you know that?
Not wanting to commit the error[unsubstantiated appeal to authority] of critics of the Christ Myth viewpoint;
The question must be asked – On what grounds do you make that assertion?
Quote:
My dream is to be a scholar. Right now, I am working on my Masters in History (my area is the history of ideas) and finishing my undergrad work in philosophy. I want to get a Ph.D in physics and philosophy and an M.A. in History. I would also like to contribute articles to magazines, give public seminars, and have some notoriety on the internet.
This is what the author says of himself in his about page. I wonder to what degree and for how long as the author studied the following:
Egyptology
Mythology[Comparative]
Comparative Religion
Astro-theology
etc. etc
The reason for outlining this is not to condescendingly ask for credentials[which is most time a valid request] but to ascertain whether the author has embarked upon
serious independent study of the subject matter he is criticizing. This is to know the extent as to the correctness of his statement above about Horus and Jesus.
Further, there is a 500 page+ book that touches on this very subject matter. If the author is interested in honest inquiry and not getting caught in the Internet current of “mere dismissal” [repudiate is not the same as refute], the book is “Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection” – D. M. Murdock (Acharya S)
Quote:
This is a shame because TGWWT features Robert M Price and Richard Carrier (though their parts in the movie are well argued). Both these men are great scholars in their own right and you would be much better off reading their books instead.
None must dare to say that Jesus is a Myth! That is a no no. We cannot have that. That is not “scholarly”. You may waffle and toss around terms like “depth critique”, “real person behind the narrative”, “Jewish peasant” or “Apocalyptic preacher” but dare not say Mythical!
Born of a Virgin[Because of Original Sin by Adam and Eve - Who modern science is now saying is a Myth]
Walked on Water
Raised People from the Dead
Heal the Sick
Cast Out Demons
Raised from the Dead
Peel away all the these fabulous, dare say mythical layers and what are we left with? Is a historical person left? Where is the evidence? This discussion is for another time and is not the point of this response. This response addresses your claims in the above post.
Robert M Price who’s part is “well argued’ and a “great scholar” as the following on his website under Recommended Reading:“Gerald Massey, The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ
These are the classic Christ-Mythicists, drawing heavily on world mythology and the hypothesis of a pre-Christian Jesus/Joshua cult. Too much of this has been forgotten.”
“*Earl Doherty, The Jesus Puzzle: Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ? Challenging the Existence of an Historical Jesus
Doherty is the successor to Wells, who has moved a bit from pure Mythicism. Doherty believes the early Christians did not believe Christ ever came to earth, but was sacrificed by spiritual entities on a higher cosmic plane. Wells thought the early Christians believed in a Jesus who had been on earth long before, but that he hadn’t.”
and a lady you might have heard about
“Acharya S., Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled
Jesus, like Buddha and Krishna, started out as a solar myth. Acharya revives the old solar-stellar mythology approach unjustly abandoned long ado. Bravo!”
Well, the cat has dragged in far more material so his list will have to be updated.
Robert M Price review of Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection maybe found here:
http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/ ... _egypt.htm*Note this was also posted in the comments on that blog
Login
Register
FAQ
Search
