Again, as mentioned above, since I don't have Dr. Foreman's audio for $1.99 about Zeitgeist all I have to go on comes from the blog at johnpiippo. com /2011/02/zeitgeist. html who claims to have the audio. He claims to quote from Dr. Foreman's audio:
Dr. Foreman wrote:
"One thing that is in error is the claim that Sirius follows the 3 stars/kings in Orion’s belt, that on Dec. 25 they align that way. The fact is they align that way every night. There’s nothing special that happens on December 25."
So, Dr. Foreman claims that it is an error to say that "Sirius follows the 3 stars/kings in Orion’s belt on Dec. 25
" then, goes on to claim that "they align that way every night
." Where is the error? Zeitgeist never claimed that it only happened on only one night so, this is merely a straw man argument from Dr. Foreman, and a pathetic one at that. Zeitgeist Part 1 is only around 25 minutes long
so, it never intended to cover everything, obviously, but it sure did hit a nerve didn't it? I wish people like Dr. Foreman had the integrity to be critical of their own religion.
It sure sounds like somebody is really working overly hard to disagree with even the most basic facts. The quote above gives us a clue or red flag that what we can expect from Dr. Foreman is probably going to be an endless stream of special pleading. Those within view can go outside and see for oneself the constellation of Orion and his belt (the three kings) and notice that it does in fact point in the general direction of the coming sun rise - the ancients noticed it too.
What's different about December 25th? Duhh, the winter solstice! Solstice actually means, "sun stands still." The sun just happens to appear to stand still (from an earthly perspective) for about three days. It happens at the summer solstice as well, which just happens to be the birthdate of John the Baptist known as St. John's Day. Christianity has so severely severed the winter solstice from the origins of Christmas type celebrations that Christians for the most part forget that the solstice even exists. They certainly aren't aware that the winter solstice was the basis for Christmas type festivals in the pre-Christian Pagan world, which includes the symbolic death of the sun god for three days in a cave or tomb on the solstice only to resurrect, re-birth or rise anew on December 25th when the sun begins its journey back north again bringing with it spring and eventually summer once again.
The Dec 25th date (or any other) itself isn't important. It's the fact that Dec 25th represents the day when the sun god resurrects from his symbolic death from the cave or tomb. Regardless of the calendar used what it really comes down to is the winter solstice and three days later.
Easter includes another three day period. Remember Good Friday to Easter Sunday? Scholars refer to this three day period as a Triduum. Christmas and Easter are the most popular celebrations for Christianity and both have their origin in pre-Christian Pagan religion thousands of years before Christianity or Jesus was ever heard of. The evidence for all this may be found throughout Acharya's books, articles, excerpts, videos and astrotheology calendars
.3 Kings/Orion's Belt & Solstice/Christmas
Dr. Foreman wrote:
"It is also false that on Dec. 25 these three stars in Sirius point to the sunrise."
LOL, I, and many others here, have seen this for ourselves simply by stepping outside to look at the stars this time of year. Just a few nights ago in fact. These utterly pathetic attempts to debunk Zeitgeist part 1 with such ignorant claims are a complete waste of my time. Dr. Foreman apparently didn't make an effort to check anything and was apparently even too lazy to step outside to see it for himself.
Dr. Foreman wrote:
"The film argues that the story of Jesus Christ is a myth, incorporating various aspects of other pagan religions. This is called “the pagan copycat theory.” The idea is that Christianity is just a “copycat” of other religions that are out there."
Here's an FAQ addressed long ago: What about the copycat theory?
Dr. Foreman wrote:
“’Zeitgeist’ is parallelomania on steroids.”
LOL, typical hand-waving dismissal of the facts and evidence we've come to expect from religious devotees. It's soooo much easier to make such absurd claims rather than perform any investigation into the matter. They're afraid to perform even a cursory investigation into the matter for fear of what they may find. Dr. Foreman, more honest Christian New Testament scholars admit:
Are those highly credentialed and highly respected Christian scholars just "parallelomaniacs," Dr. Foreman?
"...Christian scholars over the centuries have admitted that ... "there are parallels between the Mysteries and Christianity"1 and that "the miracle stories of the Gospels do in fact parallel literary forms found in pagan and Jewish miracle stories,"2 "...According to Form Criticism the Gospels are more like folklore and myth than historical fact."3
1. Metzger, HLS, 8.
2. Meier, II, 536.
3. Geisler, CA, 320.
- Who Was Jesus? 259, from here
Dr Price has two relevant Ph.D's in biblical scholarship and states in his review
"...I find it undeniable that many of the epic heroes and ancient patriarchs and matriarchs of the Old Testament were personified stars, planets, and constellations..."
"[Horus] is pictured as spanning the dome of heaven, his arms stretched out in a cruciform pattern."
"The book is more extensive and encompassing than many dissertations I have read, containing over 900 sources and nearly 2,400 citations in several languages, including ancient Egyptian. The text abounds in long lost references many of them altogether new to English rendering, including de novo translations of difficult passages in handwritten German...."
"I find myself in full agreement with Acharya S/D.M. Murdock..."
Dr. Foreman wrote:
"This is an old idea. There is nothing new here. Many people, when they first see “Zeitgeist,” think “Wow – I have never heard that before!” Zeitgeist-parallelomania was propagated in the late-18th century on Germany by a school called the religionsgeschichte school, the “history of religions” school...”
Already addressed long ago: Does Acharya rely on 18th and 19th century sources?
"...When discussing, for instance, the Egyptian mythology as put forth by Gerald Massey, it is imperative to keep in mind that until the discovery of the Rosetta Stone by Napoleon's troops in 1799 and the subsequent translation of such by Champollion in 1822, no one could read Egyptian hieroglyphs! So, at that point, a huge amount of data previously undeciphered and unknown finally became available. To recap, before 1822 no one could read Egyptian hieroglyphs, so how would all these details come out before Massey?..."
- The Use of 19th Century Writings
Dr. Foreman wrote:
"...The reason it died out what that critical scholars looked at it and said, “There’s actually no evidence to support it at all.”
LOL, this is a falsehood.
"Murdock was a major consultant for this movie"
Well, a quick consultation at the last minute for part 1 only, which resulted in the official version.
Dr. Foreman wrote:
"Her work has even been debunked by Robert Price who himself ultimately agrees with idea that Jesus never existed."
LOL, even a cursory check would've produced the fact that Dr. Robert Price removed his old review of Christ Conspiracy way back in 04ish - almost 8 years ago. Dr. Price has since then written the foreword to her book entitled, Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ
, as well as strong positive reviews of her books such as Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
. Of course, that doesn't stop theists or atheists from attempting to bludgeon her to death with an 11 year old review removed by the author himself nearly 8 years ago.
Dr. Foreman wrote:
"There is evidence that the Christian church adopted Dec. 25 from pagan religions and used it for the birth of Christ. But that happened in the 4th century, not the 1st century. So it is not original, not an “origins” thing. For the Zeitgeistian parallelomaniac to make her case she has to show that there is a 1st-century pagan influence on Christianity that created the myth of Jesus."
LOL, She has done precisely that and if Dr. Foreman actually read her work it would've been impossible to miss. Acharya S/Murdock currently has five books to date with over 2,100 pages of text, including over 5,700 footnotes/citations to primary sources and the works of highly credentialed and respected authorities in relevant fields of study from a wide variety of backgrounds, including many Christian scholars, adding up to over 1,600 bibliographical sources. Her books also include 300+ images. She works hard to substantiate her claims with credible evidence and sources specifically due to the fact that this subject is so contentious!
LOL, The 2010 Astrotheology Calendar
specifically states: "The numerous festivals in the wandering Egyptian calendar have been affixed in the Astrotheology Calendar to when they would have occurred in the first year of the common era, specifically so we can see when they would have been celebrated during the creation of Christianity.
The 2010 Astrotheology Calendar contains information never-before published in any of Acharya's books and provides a fascinating and striking view of how certain aspects of comparative religion have developed over the centuries, including and especially as concerns the deliberate appropriation and Christianization of various Pagan holidays."
"The 25 December was observed as his birthday, the natalis invicti, the rebirth of the winter-sun, unconquered by the rigours of the season." "But Our Lord, too, is born in the month of December ... the eight before the calends of January [25 December] ..., But they call it the 'Birthday of the Unconquered'. Who indeed is so unconquered as Our Lord ...? Or, if they say that it is the birthday of the Sun, He is the Sun of Justice."
Catholic Enc: Christmashttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm
"The well-known solar feast, however, of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism with Mithraism..."
Catholic Enc: Mithraismhttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm
If Dr. Foreman has a problem with this then he'll need to take it up with the Catholic Encyclopedia. It appears that Dr. Foreman doesn't know very much about any of this at all.
Justin Martyr stated in his first apology around 150 CE:
"And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you [PAGANS] believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; Æsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Caesar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre?..."
So there's Justin Martyr admitting to quite a handful of parallels right there in around 150 CE NOT the 18th/19th century as Dr. Foreman and others claim. Does that make Justin Martyr a "parallelomaniac," Dr. Foreman?
The parallels do not have to be exact carbon copies and, in fact, it's absurd to expect them to be. These concepts have evolved over time with similarities and differences due to environment, culture and era, plus, competition with each other. The point is that the CONCEPTS
existed throughout the Egyptian religion and influenced many religions including Christianity.
Several early Christian writers connected the rebirth of the sun to the birth of Jesus:"O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born ... Christ should be born"
- Cyprian, source: Catholic Enc.: Christmas
"Over a century ago, renowned British Egyptologist Sir Dr. E.A. Wallis Budge (1857-1934), a Keeper of the Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities at the British Museum, as well as a confessed Christian, remarked that a study tracing the “influence of ancient Egyptian religious beliefs and mythology on Christianity” would “fill a comparatively large volume.” Since Dr. Budge’s time, for a variety of reasons, including the seemingly irreconcilable academic gap between historians and theologians, no one has taken up the call to produce such a volume—until now..."
- Christ in Egypt, Preface
So, what we have today is the same old thing; people like Acharya S, and many others, getting abused and derogated for trying to explain Egyptian and other myths in a format that Christians could understand.
"Foreman then points out 7 fallacies "Zeitgeist" commits."
And they are about as worthless as his arguments addressed above. Pathetic. If these are the best arguments from Dr. Foreman then, I see no reason I should waste any more of time.
Feel free to post this thread at johnpiippo. com /2011/02/zeitgeist. html and wherever else this ignorant non-sense by Dr. Foreman is posted. Here's his bio: liberty. edu/academics/arts-sciences/philosophy/index. cfm?PID=2240 Dr. Foreman is welcome to come here and prove us all wrong (hopefully for free).