Freethought Nation

Now we're there Nick.

There is no word or thought for what you are trying suggest is deeper than the "mystery of existence" because you're talking about that which can not be spoken at all.

Now because it can not be spoken, and there is no word (logos) for it, the term "mystery" is used because it signifies something outside of the range of thought and speech (ego) - something that thought and speech can't get at directly.

You are talking about the very thing that Campbell is talking about when he says "mystery" (mysterium tremendum).

The best things can't be spoken, because they transcend all speech.

The second best things are usually misunderstood because they are simply 'metaphors' that point past themselves to that which can not be spoken.

This "unspoken" which can only be referred to indirectly, by way of metaphor (words) is the ground of all being and non-being (duality). This is what the Gods of mythology are metaphorically representing across the board: "Is he or is he not, neither is nor is not"

The images, thoughts, and words of time and space are metaphorical for the ground of their own existence which is more fundamental than what we can get at.

Now we're there.

We're at the border of what can be addressed with language and what can not.

The realization is that everything that exists IS this unspoken factor that we've both been referring to the entire time. This unspoken factor is the ground of "all existence", and therefore is not separate from existence, or apart from existence, or opposed to existence. The great "mystery" is present in all of the forms and images of time and space which point right back to it.

The vital energies of the universe, the sun, the moon, the stars, the natural elements, the whole world, are radiant of this "unspoken" factor which can only be referred to with thoughts and words as a complete "mystery".

That's what I am, that's what you are Nick, that's what everyone IS.

This is NOT in opposition to astrotheology!

The astotheology is a way of speaking about the "unspoken" ground of all existence. Everything in mythology points to this realization and astrotheology is the second function of a traditinal mythology and therefore any religion that has evolved out of traditional mythologies, it can not be down played or removed.

The observation of the world and the heavens abroad is observation of the underlying "unspoken" factor that you're trying to point toward. Everything that can be called either subjective or objective (dual) points directly to the "unspoken".

Focusing on the subjective can serve the purpose of getting down to the inward "unspoken", but once there, once it has been discovered, when you turn around and move back toward the objective world of your senses you can see the radiance of the inward "unspoken" as being present in all of the objective forms and images of time and space.

"I and my Father (unspoken) are one"

(eternal)

(infinite)

(beginning and end)

(existence)

(ground of being)

(mystery)

Metaphors, Metaphors, Metaphors...

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

Uhm, not exactly. "that which cannot be spoken at all" is a stab at a concept, if you ask me. It's like the numeral "0." Doesn't refer to anything.



Well, the logos was the formative word of God expounded by Plato. I would agree about your term "mystery."

BTW, weren't we discussing the worldview of the Christian mystics? What you or I believe now about how things are, this seems to me to be a bit of a different thing really.



I don't really think so. Why do you bother with a "ground of being"? If, by definition, such a thing cannot exist (it being the source of all existence) then why create a concept for it? What's the point of creating a concept for something that doesn't exist?

Nick

_________________
"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

Originally you denied the Horus/Osiris/Jesus connection and that is exactly what Tom Harpur discusses. He says the Christ story is Osiris/Horus rewritten. Obviously you have not read either Harpur or Spong because you don't have a clue about them.



Yes, he is a dying and rising sun god. All you have to do is look into the pagan origins of Easter and Christmas to figure out this bit of knowledge. The Virgin Birth is nothing more than rewritten myth, as is the crucifixion. It's just more paganism.



Oh PLEASE! It has a TON of MYTH! It's nothing but MYTH!



And that is to mean what to me? The outcome did not matter with Christ either, except that is what the author wanted to write- so he included the Pagan ritual.



I never did mention Gnosticism in my last post. You're making a big jump there from what I said to Gnosticism. Secondly, you have no idea what all I've studied. When you have been around here long enough and looked around the place you will know what all I've studied. As for studying Gnosticism, I have studied quite a bit and again you are inaccurate about Gnosticism.

_________________
Mriana

Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison

Hi Mriana,

Can you point me to where I denied this? I don't recall it. I'm familiar with some of the numerology correspondances and the notion that Jesus is Horus/Osiris but I don't know so much about Egyptian stuff really.



That's your interpretation, Mriana. Can you point me to where in the Bible it says that Christ carries on dying and being reborn. You are using your own interpretation to ratify itself.

Both the Virgin Birth and the Crucifixion have quite different meanings in Gnosticism. Neither appears much related to astrotheology. If you look up prima materia for the former, and the Gnostic Fixed Cross for the latter you will see what I mean.



Well, you replied to an example I gave, which was actually referring to the Gnostic Fixed Cross (Cross of Crucifixion), saying that it proved your point. I am pointing out that it does anything but that.

Just because you see symbols present in a mythos that are present in an earlier mythos does not mean that it necessarily is the same mythos rewritten. Things get reused. Their meanings get changed. Like I said, if you look at the 3 Gnostic Crosses, this is imo a good example of this.





In what way?

Nick

_________________
"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

The orthodox interpretation does not have much mythos. It is just the relating of a story. The mystical interpretation does have mythos, for sure, but like I said, I don't see how it is astrotheological in basis. It uses the zodiacal symbols but primarily as labels, as far as I can see.



I've never read the Gita. I'm sure it's a fine book but it doesn't really attract me. What I know is the famous scene on the battlefield. Krishna's position is quite different from Christ's. He is saying "do not be identified with the outcome. Just fight. Be just totally involved in the battle." Christ's position seems to me to be more advocating turning the other cheek.

I also don't see how this really involves astrotheology either. If there is some other aspect of the Gita that you feel does invoke astrotheology I'd be happy to try and look at it. Like the Bible, I'm sure there's some in there.

To be honest, the only way I can see that astrotheology has relevance to Christianity would be in the hands of a mystic who was using determinism to invoke some psychological process in the listener. Anyone dealing with human free will could not use astrotheological symbols for reasons mentioned earlier. The astrotheological mythos is deterministic in nature. It denies free will.

Nick

_________________
"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

Here's a quotation from "The Power of Myth" interviews:

Moyers: one of the intriguing points of your scholarship is that you do not believe science and mythology (religion) conflict.

Campbell: No, they don't conflict. Science is breaking through now into the MYSTERY dimensions. It's pushed itself into the sphere the myth is talking about. It's come to the edge.

Moyers: The edge of being -

Campbell: - the edge, the interface between what can be known and what is never to be discovered because it is a mystery that transcends all human research. The source of life - what is it? No one knows. We don't even know what an atom is, whether it is a wave or a particle - it is both. We don't have any idea of what these things are. That's the reason we speak of the divine. There's a 'transcendent energy source'. When the physicist observes subatomic particles, he's seeing a trace on a screen. These traces come and go, come and go, and we come and go, and all life comes and goes. That energy is the informing energy of 'all things'. Mythic worship is addressed to that.

The Hero's Journey, p. 160

Campbell: There's a famous line at the close of Goethe's Faust: "Everything phenomenal or temporal is but a metaphor." And then Nietzsche topped that a few years later by saying, "everything eternal is but a reference, a metaphor." Now the function of mythology is to help us to experience everything temporal as a reference. And also to the so-called eternal verities as merely references. Mythology opens the world so that it becomes transparent to something that is beyond speech, beyond words - in short, what we call transcendence.

The first field that has to be transcendentalized this way is the field of the 'environment' that we're in, the world that we live in. So that we can see the 'whole world' as opening up to a dimension of wonder and mystery. Every 'object' in the world speaks of this 'mystery', the mystery of life and consciousness pours in through the various bodies and beings round about. It must then show you yourself that you are similarly "transparent to transcendence".

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

This "mystery" that you've agreed with as being a "metaphor" is supposed to be seen in the whole environment that we exist in - the whole world, the whole cosmos.
What good does it do to take a position against the objective world roundabout? That attitude fails to acknowledge the "transcendent energy source" that you seem to be trying to express to people.

The transcendent energy source, or what mystics would call the "ground of being", exists out of necessity. What powers all of this illusion that we're experiencing? We don't observe the actual ground of being directly but we experience the "effects" of this mysterious energy source. The ground of being refer's to the "transcendent" that you are telling us that we actually are.

The whole issue of the world as illusion suggests that what we see is not the actually thing in itself, not that the thing in itself doesn't exist. We see the ripples on the surface of the pond but if the pond were to be stilled everything would dissolve into the singular state of the still pond. There's still a pond - there's still a primary substance. The pond represents the ground of being that we are not seeing directly yet it's what we actually ARE nonetheless.

It's an issue of "something" existing that transcends our abilities to perceive directly. You can only call it "nothing", or "non-existing" because it remains out side of what you can name with words. That doesn't mean that what you can not name with words, mystically referred to as "the ground of being", doesn't exist.

That which you can not speak of is the transcendent source and supporting ground of the energies of existence - You, the world, the Solar System, the entire universe, the entire multi-verse of other universes spanning out infinitely from our own.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

Go back and read what you said. You say one thing and then you contradict it quite often.



ROFLMAO! I don't THINK so! Such a thing is taught in many a church. Jesus dies on the cross and in three days he rises again. This is also foretold in the story of John the Baptist baptizing Jesus. Baptism is symbolism for dying of the old life and resurrecting into the new life. This is NOT my interpretation, but one that is taught in children's Sunday School in many Christian Churches. This also relates back to the sun when it sits on the Southern cross for three days (to the naked eye, it doesn't look like it moves) and then rises again. In essence, Jesus Christ is another dying and rising deity or rather a retelling of Horus, as the Anglican priest Tom Harpur even attests to also.



In Gnosticism, we are all Christ crucified. However, there astrotheology even in that. One would have to be blinded by literalism not to see it or comprehend it.



It is not a fixed cross though and it does mean that it is mythos rewritten. IMHO, you have not spent many years studying this and going by what you were told. Your minister said it, that makes it so. In actuality, one needs to go beyond and deeper than what the minister states. S/he isn't going to tell you everything, because you're not suppose to think for yourself in matters of religion.



In many ways, we have all tried to tell you, but you are refusing to listen, with your mind set on only one thing- the inerrancy of the Bible, which was not written or inspired by God, but rather by man. There is no truth to it, esp historically. There never was a Jesus Christ as depicted in the Bible. In what way concerning what all I've studied? Well, I'm sure I have more college hours and more years of individual studying with the likes of Price, Spong, Matthews, and less known ones than you have. No, I'm not trying to brag, just telling you the way it is. I have hardly even scratched the surface, in addressing you, as to what I know, because I get really tired of repeating myself.

However, I will give you the benefit of the doubt, because it can be very time consuming going through all the threads trying to find out what has and has not been discussed. At the very least, you could try and read Acharya's book for starters and maybe even some of the other books mentioned here before you go saying one thing and then contradicting yourself. You even did that with Tat at least once too. That's one of the reasons I think very little of what you have said so far.

_________________
Mriana

Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison

Mriana, I'm not sure if Nick is just stricken with a split personality or something of that nature, but he certainly seems to be caught up in self contradictive thought patterns lately. It's happened a few times already.

It's important that he get a grip on this problem before he tries publishing his personal research. That's what all of this is. He's trying to test out his idea's on everyone here at the forum and get some feed back and weigh out the opposition. He's been at this for some time now.

Nick, I'm talking to you DRAGON to SNAKE here.

What's this all about?

How far are you trying to take it?

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

Becareful Tat, he might bite you with his self-contradictions again. If he is writing a book and doesn't pay attention to what he writes, people will tear him to shreads with all his self-contradictions.

_________________
Mriana

Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison

I know.

They'll rip him a new asshole at this rate.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

Yes, and he'll be thinking we were nice in comparison.

_________________
Mriana

Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison

Methinks y'all should've given it up a long time ago.

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

Tie two birds together and though they have four wings they cannot fly.

A horse has no udders, a cow can't winny, up is down and sideways is straight ahead.

_________________
"Violence is rarely the answer, but when it is the answer, it is the ONLY answer." -- Tim Larkin

"If someone comes to kill you -- arise quickly and kill him." -- The Talmud

"Time does not exist. To love, to want, infinitely, that is all and all is that"
SOLI DEO
Le 27 Jun 1566
Michel de Notre Dam

Interesting Astrotheo.

You seem rather zealous about astrotheology and Zeitgeist in general. I've taken a look at your website briefly but I'll have to look into it a little more thoroughly.

I hope you realize that people often enter this forum under names that they think will "blend in" with the crowd. I've found a few apologist's posting very zealous sounding posts in order to get in here undercover and go about what ever it is they're trying to go about.

"I love Zeitgeist"

"Let's all change the world"

"Dam those apologists"

"Astrotheology is awesome"

You have to realize that your whole approach here comes off as very suspect. Nick has come over from the JR forum and I have reason to believe that some of the other anti-astrotheology members are drifting around here as well taking in whatever information they're after.

I'll find them all in due time.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

It's business as usual. You find the naysayers and the trolls on every forum.

What I meant when I said that y'all should give it up was that you should give up the discussion with ol' Nick. His discussion makes no sense and it is going nowhere. I don't see any point in discussing with him further. He's an antagonist.

We all have our own agenda. Mine is to learn something. You guys obviously know more about this stuff than I do, and so I am listening. I enjoy following threads, but this one has gotten a little frustrating. It has a lot of potential, but this Nick fellow is a dead end.

I have no hidden agenda. I am not here to cause trouble. I am here to learn and to be a part of the revolt against socialism, tyranny, the enslavement of mankind, religion, et. al. -- and then some. Most of my past study has evolved around the State, not the church, and so a lot of this stuff is new to me and I am trying to understand it.

My Web site isn't that big of a deal. It is an experiment really. I slapped it together one evening because I wanted to share with people some of the writings and the images that I think are important. Zeitgeist just happens to be one of them. Other important things include our Constitution, Declaration of Independence, and Bill of Rights. I also included Patrick Henry's famous "Give Me Liberty" speech. If you don't love Patrick Henry -- there is something seriously wrong with you. HA! HA!

"Astrotheo" is a name I made up some time ago. It has a special meaning for me. I am learning to be an astrologer and to give people readings. I am studying under Dr. Louis Turi www.drturi.com. Astrotheo will be the name of my business when it finally gets underway. I got the Web domain www.astrotheo.com and decided to put it to use for the time being with my little Web site.

Don't worry, I am on your side and I love what you guys are doing. I have Acharya S. companion guide to Zeitgeist and have read it. I am going to get more of her books as well. Great stuff. Just what the doctor ordered.

_________________
"Violence is rarely the answer, but when it is the answer, it is the ONLY answer." -- Tim Larkin

"If someone comes to kill you -- arise quickly and kill him." -- The Talmud

"Time does not exist. To love, to want, infinitely, that is all and all is that"
SOLI DEO
Le 27 Jun 1566
Michel de Notre Dam