Freethought Nation

Here's a clip of the Matrix from the perspective of the monomythic "Heros Journey" and how they used certain aspects of it in making the movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AG4rlGk ... re=related

It's really not that complicated. The person takes off on a quest into the unknown, and then eventually discovers that they and the unknown are one, and then returns back to their society with the benefits of the journey.

You seem to be in the return to society phase Nick. It's difficult to explain that which can not be explained isn't it. Why do you think people need to use concepts to try and explain the unexplainable (beyond concepts). There's no way around that, unless you've just come up with a way of explaining "that to which words and thoughts do not reach".

If you don't use a set of concepts and then pitch it past all concepts what are you supposed to do?

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

When trying to describe the ineffable, it's helpful to pay attention to what isn't said, as language, by its definition, is a limiting factor. It's only via paradoxical concepts that we can begin to develop a better understanding. Koan and biting sarcasm are two of my favourite methods

"Meaning is not in things but in between them"

Right, my hangover and I are off to work now.

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“It is discouraging how many people are shocked by honesty and how few by deceit. ”

That's more or less what Nick was getting at early when he mentioned that he's into non-duality and so he's very dual.

I realize that in the east they will say the opposite in paradoxical kind of context, such as "the void that is no void", "Neti Neti Iti Iti" (Not that Not that It is here It is here). Everything is nothing, Nothing is everything.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

It sort of goes from non-duality, to duality and then back to a state between the two of them. Ternary logic. They're now working on computers that operate along these lines, rather than along the old binary system. I think that this will be the ideal environment in which true artificial intelligence will emerge, since it would be in-keeping with the natural mode of human thought.

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“It is discouraging how many people are shocked by honesty and how few by deceit. ”

Hi Mriana,

Just to get this clear, here's the dialogue that led up to this exchange...









Once again, you seem completely spaced out when discussing and not capable of keeping to any kind of a mental straight line. We are discussing Gnosticism and suddenly you veer off at a tangent. I just want to make you aware of it because it is difficult to discuss with people who are seemingly so driven by their unconscious that they cannot think straight on a specific subject for more than a few minutes. Do you not agree? How are you ever going to determine the truth about anything if your awareness is constantly being so hijacked? Does this not concern you?

Nick

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"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

Well, in grasping fully non-dualism what one witnesses is the destruction of the meaning behind any philosophy. The rug is pulled out from under them because if awareness, or reality, is non-dual than there is no point outside of the system from which to make objective statements about how things are.

The problem now is, however... if all philosophies are invalid then what about non-dualism as a philosophy? It is of course equally invalid. Thus non-dualism shares the dubious or possible exalted distinction of being the a self-invalidating philosophy.

So, in grasping fully non-dualism, realising that all objectivity and all philosophy is just preceeding from false assumptions, so one is left with what simply is - dualistic or otherwise. The possibility to abstract oneself from reality through conceptualisation is vastly diminished and you are left with the world you have created and what you want to do about it.

This is kind of why I'm asking you why you want to believe in a Ground of Being, when logic dictates that it cannot exist.

Nick

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"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

Actually, you were the one who veered off. This thread is not about Gnosticism. It is about Xianity's realationship to previous myths and astrotheology- ie Zeitgeist. I am precisely on topic, except I have a feeling you don't like that much and are projecting. Check the title of the thread before you go and make accusations.

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Mriana

Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison

Nick, I think that my use of the term "ground of being" is what the confusion is here. I only mean to suggest "existence".

Existence itself is the ground, so to speak, of everything. Choose any given object in the universe, and it IS existence. We experience existence so it obviously exists, at least according to your notion of experience as dictating what does indeed exist.

I think that we have a langauge problem here between one another. That's usually the case with langauge as it goes. I'm also trying to simplify things to some degree. Some of your terminology doesn't seem to suggest any effort on your part to make your ideas as simple and understandable as they can be.

When I start asking questions about the origin of existence, I'm merely walking the mind by the hand right up to the boundary of what can be known, conceptualized, and thought about. Because there's no fixed answer one is left in a state of experiencing deep mystery - looking at existence itself in terms of giving it a fixed beginning transcends peoples ability solve. If you try to lock horns with the question you'll find that you can not tackle it. This is just a way of approaching the border of what can be known and then pitching it past the realm of what can be known entirely.

That's all that anyone can do. Even the stuff that you've provided here is nothing more than a series of conceptualizations where you point out the transcendence of all conceptualization as being "ultimate" as the main point. That's what Campbell did, That's what Watt's did, and that appears to be what Cohen does. I don't feel like pussy footing around trying to pretend that we shouldn't conceptualize and ask thought provoking question and so on.

What you've provided us here in terms of your interpretation of astrotheology, is just plain inaccurate in my view. Jesus is the "Sun" in the new testament mythology. The sun can be seen as representing mankind (Ego) in myth, of course, but it's still the "sun" that the priests are referring to as "The Light of the World" etc. etc. with their Jesus symbolism. This is so very obvious.

I hate to say it Nick, but you're time here is about up.

No one's buying it.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

It is interesting that you bring up this emergence of a triune reality in the mystical Christian teachings, for this is another reason why I'm skeptical of the "Jesus is the Sun" beliefs.

The sun in astrotheology takes on the role of both empowering life, through the energy that it constantly disperses, and guiding life, through the symbolic following of its travails through the heavens.

However, with the emergence of the Christian doctrines, this dual role is split. The sun remains the raw motive power that drives life, but the "guiding role" is given over to the notion of "logos" or "divine word" which emerged with Platonic thought a few centuries before Christ. Jesus is clearly the logos personified, and his teaching is far more personal than the articulating of a mere solar ritual.

There has been a shift of the reins, so to speak, with the emergence of mystical Christianity. The sun's role has been diminished to the engine room, whilst the divine aspects of the ego are given the steering wheel.

Nick

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"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

Then quote me Bishop Spong on the mystical roots of Christianity. Stay on topic.

As far as I'm aware, we don't know for sure exactly what constituted the mystical source of the Christian doctrine. But I think it is generally accepted that the doctrines known today as Gnosticism, Kabbalah, Alchemy and Platonism comprise a big chunk of it. There are also the rites at Eleusis and Essene practices. In examining these beliefs and doctrines and distinguishing which aspects are influenced by Astrotheology and which are not, one can thus make some headway with separating what is true and what is false.

Nick

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"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

Well, it's up to you, Tat. If you're happy with saying Jesus must be the sun because he said "I'm the light of the world" then that's that. Don't let a few millenia of mystical thought interfere with your beliefs.

Nick

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"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

This is the hub of the issue Nick, it's not a matter of "mystical or solar", it's a case of "Solar-Mystical".

Without the Solar mythologies there is no mysticism. I just went over M.P Halls Solar Christmas series again last night and it's made plainly clear that astrotheology is the initiated knowledge that has branched off and evolved into the mystical traditions and secret societies of today.

It's not just the light of the world, it's the Virgin birth, life of miracles, death, resurrection, ascension, second coming, 12 followers, walking on water, crown of thorns, references to the numbers 30 and 33, coming both before and after John the baptist, telling the disciples to follow the sun into the house of Aquarius, Dying on the cross of the zodiac etc. etc. etc.

You're talking to people that not only read through Acharya's work, but a slew of other peoples work as well and are aware of the connection of Jesus with the Sun to the point of it being completely undeniable.

Jesus is representing the Sun in a mystical tradition was just like Horus is representing the sun in a mystical tradition. It's not whether or not the Egyptian religion, Gnosticism, or Christianity are mystical or astrotheology, they are clearly both. The astrotheology, the "cosmic order" is at the foundation of all mystical belief's. They're built up on it and they've layered mystical meanings over the top of the anceint astrotheology.

And your right Nick, it is entirely up to me to believe as I will.

I believe that there's no separation between mysticism and astrotheology - The story of Jesus is an astrological allegory layered with mystical ideology. The literalizing of the story has served to down play the astrological and mystical meanings to where people don't see them directly.

We now live in a time where the truth about it all is coming out and that means knowing the truth about both the astrological and mystical dialogue which combined together form the term "astrotheology".

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

Couldn't have said it better myself.

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“It is discouraging how many people are shocked by honesty and how few by deceit. ”

Go through them one by one. Let's take a look. Quite a few of the things above also refer to aspects of mystical psychology.

I know quite a lot of Kabbalah and a reasonable amount of Gnosticism + Alchemy, the principle mystical traditions that emerged from the Bible. Any good Kabbalist or any good Gnostic will tell you, finally it is about one thing and one thing only. You have fallen from what the Hebrews call Ha-Shamaim, the divine realm, and these texts are created to help you get back. That's it, plain and simple. Some of the notions and principles have foundation in solar worship but to say Jesus is the sun is 90% idiocy. Yes, there's a 10% where Jesus has the attributes of a solar deity. But he is, in principle, an embodiment of the logos, a messenger sent by God to communicate with the ego.

I haven't read Manly P Hall. I heard he was a nice guy but that he was not involved in real "inner school" work. I studied with the school founded by Dr Paul Foster Case.

What I know is that for every person becoming involved with Astrotheology there must be 100 becoming involved with Kabbalah, esp since the mid 90s when it came out of the closet.

Nick

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"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

And who exactly is going to teach a course in astrotheology?



And how is that going for you? Not so good from where I stand. There are many new-age Kabbalah /Gnostic religious views going around to be initiated into these days - no surprise there.

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2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube