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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:44 pm 
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nick227 wrote:
OK. What makes Jesus different is that his role as a solar deity is vastly overshadowed by all the time he spends telling mystical fables, carrying out symbolically loaded acts, and asking his disciples spiritually loaded questions.

Nick


Oo! Which is it? Is he a solar deity or not? You are contradicting yourself again.

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Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison


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nick227 wrote:
What I see in Acharya's work is what I would call sleight of hand. She does not source in pre-Christian history the sayings of Jesus, the actual meat of the gospels. At least not as far as I've read. Please correct me if I'm wrong. She simply attempts to source some of the embroidery that he's picked up, the clothing of a solar messiah. This is fair enough but to then claim that Jesus' role as a solar messiah defines him is to me idiotic.


Quote:
You obviously have not read her books.


You're avoiding the issue. Give me her source for the Gospel of Thomas in pre-Christian history.

Nick

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"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15


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Mriana wrote:
nick227 wrote:
OK. What makes Jesus different is that his role as a solar deity is vastly overshadowed by all the time he spends telling mystical fables, carrying out symbolically loaded acts, and asking his disciples spiritually loaded questions.

Nick


Oo! Which is it? Is he a solar deity or not? You are contradicting yourself again.


From the beginning of this thread I have constantly pointed out that Jesus has some of the attributes of a solar deity, but that these are vastly overshadowed by his clear role as an envoy, a messenger sent to communicate with the ego.

Nick

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"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15


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nick227 wrote:
nick227 wrote:
What I see in Acharya's work is what I would call sleight of hand. She does not source in pre-Christian history the sayings of Jesus, the actual meat of the gospels. At least not as far as I've read. Please correct me if I'm wrong. She simply attempts to source some of the embroidery that he's picked up, the clothing of a solar messiah. This is fair enough but to then claim that Jesus' role as a solar messiah defines him is to me idiotic.


Quote:
You obviously have not read her books.


You're avoiding the issue. Give me her source for the Gospel of Thomas in pre-Christian history.

Nick


You never asked a question to begin with. BTW, the Gospel of Thomas is not pre-Christian history. It was written during the same time span as the other gospels, but was rejected when the authorities had their little brewhaha concerning which books should or should not be included in the canon.

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Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:50 pm 
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Mriana wrote:
nick227 wrote:
I'm a human being. I don't believe in all that nicey nicey nonsense. Trying to discuss with people like yourself and ftl, you seem to skip off into your heads all the time, and insulting you is the only way I know that has a chance to bring you back. Feelings work.

Nick


And this is why I consider you an arrogant boob who dishes our the crock. Even more so when you accuse us going into our heads. We are intellectuals you know and apparently you have learned nothing except what you have been told, instead of thinking for yourself. What's being a human being have to do with horse manure?


You do it all the time, Mriana, imo. You just skip off there. You ask me about Samson and Jesus. I answer you and you make an idiotic claim. You just skip off there, you take yourself out of the frame. Insulting you seems to bring you back. Like I say, I'm just being human. I'm trying to converse with you.

Nick

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"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15


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nick227 wrote:
Mriana wrote:
nick227 wrote:
OK. What makes Jesus different is that his role as a solar deity is vastly overshadowed by all the time he spends telling mystical fables, carrying out symbolically loaded acts, and asking his disciples spiritually loaded questions.

Nick


Oo! Which is it? Is he a solar deity or not? You are contradicting yourself again.


From the beginning of this thread I have constantly pointed out that Jesus has some of the attributes of a solar deity, but that these are vastly overshadowed by his clear role as an envoy, a messenger sent to communicate with the ego.

Nick


No dear. I just looked and you have not been here posting from the beginning of this thread. IF you were here at the beginning of the thread, you have not posted until about four or five pages back.

Yes and that is my point. You keep contradicting yourself ever since you started posting here. You say one thing and then another. Then you accuse others of going off topic or what have you. I DON'T think so!

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Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:55 pm 
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Quote:
You never asked a question to begin with. BTW, the Gospel of Thomas is not pre-Christian history. It was written during the same time span as the other gospels, but was rejected when the authorities had their little brewhaha concerning which books should or should not be included in the canon.


Acharya is claiming that the figure of Jesus is primarily derived from pre-Christian solar worship. I am pointing out that the bulk of Jesus' activities are concerned with articulating a mystical dialogue. The Gospel of Thomas is an excellent example of this. If Jesus is second hand then where is this gospel sourced from?

Or do you accept that it is original material?

Nick

_________________
"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:57 pm 
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nick227 wrote:
You do it all the time, Mriana, imo. You just skip off there. You ask me about Samson and Jesus. I answer you and you make an idiotic claim. You just skip off there, you take yourself out of the frame. Insulting you seems to bring you back. Like I say, I'm just being human. I'm trying to converse with you.

Nick


It's the other way around, dear. We are discussing the astrotheology in the Bible, which you deny one minute and then agree with the next. If anyone is making idiotic claims, it's you. Such insults only derail the conversation, not bring it back to Zeitgeist and the astrotheology in the Bible- which I will remind you again, IS the topic of the thread. Which means Samson is included in all the mess. It is YOU who skips off to no where land and derail the thread acting like an arrogant boob. Your insults don't bring anything back on topic. It just shows your behind, which is not conversing with anyone at all.

Again the topic is Zeitgeist, astrotheology, Christianity, AND the Bible, which includes Samson. Now, do YOU understand the topic of the thread or would you rather derail it some more with asinine insults?

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Mriana

Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:00 pm 
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Mriana wrote:
Again the topic is Zeitgeist, astrotheology, Christianity, AND the Bible, which includes Samson. Now, do YOU understand the topic of the thread or would you rather derail it some more with asinine insults?


I have answered your question about Samson. How about you now answer mine about the source of mystical Christianity? Do you accept that it is original material? Otherwise, please provide me with a pre-Christian source for the Gnostic gospels.

Nick

_________________
"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15


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nick227 wrote:
Quote:
You never asked a question to begin with. BTW, the Gospel of Thomas is not pre-Christian history. It was written during the same time span as the other gospels, but was rejected when the authorities had their little brewhaha concerning which books should or should not be included in the canon.


Acharya is claiming that the figure of Jesus is primarily derived from pre-Christian solar worship. I am pointing out that the bulk of Jesus' activities are concerned with articulating a mystical dialogue. The Gospel of Thomas is an excellent example of this. If Jesus is second hand then where is this gospel sourced from?

Or do you accept that it is original material?

Nick


No the Gospel of Thomas is NOT and excellent example of this, because it was written around the same time as the other gospels. It is NOT pre-Christianity. Now Horus IS. If you don't like Acharya's reference to this pre-Christian reference, then read Tom Harpur This Pagan Christ. He professes Horus is the pre-Christian source of the Christ myth. In other words, the gospels came from Horus, Krishna, and surprisingly, even Buddha. If you look around this forum, you will see I have posted text on Krishna and Buddha that relate to the Christ myth- they are almost word for word that same, minus the different names. Obviously you haven't read any pre-Christian source either. :roll:

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Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison


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nick227 wrote:
Mriana wrote:
Again the topic is Zeitgeist, astrotheology, Christianity, AND the Bible, which includes Samson. Now, do YOU understand the topic of the thread or would you rather derail it some more with asinine insults?


I have answered your question about Samson. How about you now answer mine about the source of mystical Christianity? Do you accept that it is original material? Otherwise, please provide me with a pre-Christian source for the Gnostic gospels.

Nick


No you have not. You answered a question with a question. THAT is not an answer.

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Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison


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Not as good as Elaine Pagels, but here's a site that is about the Gospel of Thomas (FAQ page to be exact): http://users.misericordia.edu//davies/thomas/faq.htm

Quote:
When was the Gospel of Thomas written?

This is a question hotly debated by scholars. Many scholars say that it was written at about the same time, even perhaps somewhat before, the gospels in the bible. Their argument is that most of the sayings in Thomas show no signs of having any dependence on, or knowledge of, the Biblical gospels and so Thomas' sayings derive from oral tradition and not from written Biblical texts. This doesn't seem to have been possible after the end of the first century when the Biblical texts began to be authoritative in Christianity. Other scholars find bits of evidence that indicate that Thomas was indeed dependent, in part, on Biblical texts, and surmise that the author of Thomas must have edited out almost all indications of the particular styles and ideas of the Biblical authors. Those scholars date Thomas in the mid second century A.D.


Even Pagels in her book Beyond Belief: The Secret Gospel of Thomas dates this gospel to be no later than the second century. Thus, it was not pre-Christian literature. She also mentions the various sun gods that pre-date this and compares the two in her book. She does not dismiss the relationship between the Egyptian and Greek sun gods to the gospels.

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Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:54 pm 
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nick227, So your entire trip in life is to go into other people's forums and spew personal hatred at everyone and, revealing YOUR OWN MINDNUMBINGLY DULL PSYCHE AND EQUALLY BORING OBSESSION WITH MENTAL ILLNESS, attack one of the most fascinating developments human beings have ever discovered. What a great life! Where do I sign up?

You know NOTHING about astrotheology - do you have a clue that it is the basis of the Egyptian religion? Do you know ANYTHING about the Egyptian religion?

What is DULL, dude, is listening to your obsession with human beings, with no clue and no interest in the outside world at all. You are a "therapist," which breaks down into "the rapist," out raping everyone's minds with your bogus analysis. All you're trying to do is create a mental illness that you think you can fix in the people here. You're obviously the one with an authority problem - what, because we have no interest in your human-obsessed rantings, we are rejecting "authority?" YOU'RE the "authority?" Give me a break.

You are an ignorant, conceited and arrogant BORE, actually.

Now, for those of us who know what astrotheology is all about, I share a couple of quotes. If you have no interest in the brilliant expression of humanity dating back thousands of years, spare us your conceited and OCD opinion. Not interested. Turn the channel, go elsewhere. The fact that you keep posting here with your derogatory spew and your inane psychological abuse is a reflection of some sort of sickness on your part. Go get some treatment, since you so enjoy wallowing in the psychological detritus of humanity.

THE FOLLOWING ARE SOME GREAT AND BRILLIANT QUOTES ABOUT ASTROTHEOLOGY, IN SPECIFIC SOLAR MYTHOLOGY. These great quotes can be found in Acharya's magnum opus, Suns of God. If you have no interest in this poetic expression of mankind, then it is YOU WHO ARE MINDNUMBINGLING DULL. YOU ARE ENTIRELY IGNORANT OF THE SUBJECT MATTER, AND I HAVE NO INTEREST IN YOUR OPINION. I suppose you will now have a conniption fit because I've rejected your authority and will attempt to abuse me into falling down at your feet and worshipping you as the all-knowing king of mindfuck. Again, not interested in your own mental problems and mother issues - take them elsewhere so we can enjoy the natural world around us as we please.

Quote:
'"O Sun, Ruler of all, Spirit of the world, Might of the world, Light of the world.'"

"The god of day, or the god Sun, was the great god of the ancient world, and has been worshipped by every people on the globe; we shall find that it prevailed in both continents—the old as well as the new world, and was personified in all the sacred allegories, poetically described as suffering the destiny of mortals; everywhere read of the birth, death, and resurrection of the Sun; he had his cradle and tomb, whether called Adonis, Osiris, Hercules, Bacchus, Atys, Chrishna, Mithra, or Christ!"

The Existence of Christ Disproved...

Over a century ago, Prof. Max Müller elegantly described the pervasive sun worship of the ancients:

"What position the sun must have occupied in the thoughts of the early dwellers on earth, we shall never be able to fully understand. Not even the most recent scientific discoveries described in Tyndall's genuine eloquence, which teach us how we live, and move, and have our being in the sun, how we burn it, how we breathe it, how we feed on it - give us any idea of what this source of light and life, this silent traveler, this majestic ruler, this departing friend or dying hero, in his daily or yearly course, was to the awakening consciousness of mankind. People wonder why so much of the old mythology, the daily talk…was solar; what else could it have been? The names of the sun are endless, and so are his stories; but who he was, whence he came and whither he went, remained a mystery from beginning to end."

The ancient reverence of the sun was likewise recounted by Christian Mythology Unveiled ("CMU"):

"…the Sun was looked up to as the grand omnipotent nucleus, whose all-vivifying power is the vital and sole source of animative and vegetative existence upon the globe - the glorious foundation out of which springs all that man ever has, or ever can call good; and as such, the only proper object of the homage and adoration of mankind: hence the Sun, as we are informed by Pausanias, was worshipped at Eleusis under the name of "The Saviour.'"

The sun was not only the Grand Architect and Logos but also the "Ruler," "Savior" and "Omnipotent Nucleus" who controlled human destiny. Deemed the "Primeval Being," the sun was the "God of gods," the "King of kings," all-powerful, all-encompassing, and representative of the "Universal Mind." The sun, or the "Great Father," and the moon, the "Great Mother," were mankind's "ancestors" and "benefactors."

Suns of God, 60-61

If you don't find that interesting, I can't help. By your derogatory attitude towards anything outside of your own fuzzy navel, I'd say it's YOU, frankly, who are scared of yourself and who have serious mental problems.

In the meantime, I will continue to be fascinated with the highest expression of humanity's perception of its natural world over the past tens of thousands of years. You sir, are nothing but a TROLL

nick227 wrote:
Quote:
Most of us who are over the age of 12 are very aware of all the Christian writings - we've had them pounded into our heads for many years. Many of them are repulsive, actually, and not at all necessary to living a good and fulfilling life.

Almost no one is aware of the hidden astrotheological meanings behind them, despite your silly and arrogant claims. What you are doing with your obsessive self-interest is reducing the beauty and awe of the cosmos to a petty human experience that has no lasting value.

I prefer to look at the cosmos as a whole and not be obsessed with the human being, as you are.


ie. you're scared of yourself. Why else would you focus on something as mindnumbingly dull as astrotheology? You have a big trip with authority, you project it onto the world and think jesus being the sun is going to take it away. Excuse me while I laugh out loud.

Quote:
People who know about it but aren't interested in the ancient astrotheological perception have their heads in the sand and are missing out of most of reality.
Astrotheology is far more interesting and all-encompassing than sitting around egotistically obsessing on your fuzzy navel.


Astrotheology is dull as shit. Who wants some deterministic academic bollocks rammed down your throat by a bunch of demented authority trippers? Hmm, that sounds appealing. Almost as bad as orthodox Christianity.

Nick

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2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:34 pm 
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James, you are quite welcome to share your thoughts around here as you wish - never mind Nick's BS.

Nick, "No one goes to the father but by me".

The Father is the creative principle, or unseen God.

Jesus is representing the SUN, in keeping with the ancient traditions.

No one goes to the unseen creative principle (God) but through the SUN (Jesus).

This is because the SUN was used in this manner in the mythologies. To get to the God one went through the SUN.

GOD'S SUN is the light of the world. The SUN points back at the unseen GOD.

Yahshua = "Yahweh is Salvation"

Metaphor - "The Son points at the Father"

Literally - The SUN points at the Unseen creative principle of the cosmos.

The unseen creative principle of the cosmos and the whole of creation - Sun, Moon, Stars, etc. etc. are interconnected and one because the creative principle can not be separated from the whole.

Jesus is serving the role of the SUN.

The character in the myth points past himself to the creative principle of the cosmos, just as the Sun points past itself to the creative principle of the cosmos.

Attaching an ego teaching to the solar symbolism does nothing to negate the solar symbolism, it mere adds yet another dimension to the solar symbolism.

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:04 am 
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nick227 wrote:
Acharya is claiming that the figure of Jesus is primarily derived from pre-Christian solar worship. I am pointing out that the bulk of Jesus' activities are concerned with articulating a mystical dialogue. The Gospel of Thomas is an excellent example of this. If Jesus is second hand then where is this gospel sourced from?

Or do you accept that it is original material?


Mriana wrote:
No the Gospel of Thomas is NOT and excellent example of this, because it was written around the same time as the other gospels. It is NOT pre-Christianity.


Mriana,

As I understand it, you are claiming that Jesus is simply a recycled solar messiach from antiquity, who did not actually exist. If this is so, then from where are all these mystical teachings coming?

The New Testament and Gnostic Gospels are absolutely riddled with mysticism, some thinly veiled, some not so. If Jesus did not exist, then who created it?

As I understand it, Acharya's positon is that it was all recycled from earlier mythos. I challenge this. I would like you to take what is probably the best known of the mystical Christian texts, the Gospel of Thomas, which you are familiar with as you have said, and go through it, saying by saying, telling me from where in the pre-Christian era it is being derived from.

Here are the first 7 sayings...

1) And He said, "Whoever finds the interpretation of these
sayings will not experience death."

2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he
finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes
troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say, 'See, the Kingdom is
in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they
say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and
you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living
Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty
and it is you who are that poverty."

4) Jesus said, "The man old in days will not hesitate to ask a
small child seven days old about the place of life, and he will
live. For many who are first will become last, and they will
become one and the same."

5) Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which
is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing
hidden which will not become manifest."

6) His disciples questioned Him and said to Him, "Do you want
us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet
shall we observe?"
Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

7) Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when
consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes,
and the lion becomes man."


Thank you

Nick

_________________
"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15


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