Freethought Nation

I answered it here http://forums.truthbeknown.com/viewtopi ... 0690#10690

Nick

_________________
"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

Yes. This is what I am saying. It is not recycled mythology. It is original writing. So, if Jesus did not exist, then who is the author of the sayings attributed to him?

If Jesus is a recycled solar deity, then from where are all these teachings coming? If Christianity is just recycled from ancient solar worship, then I would assume that the Gnostic Gospels and the canonical Gospels must be too. Please demonstrate this by going through the Gospel of Thomas, saying by saying, and pointing out from where the mystical principles being conveyed are earlier articulated in pre-Christian mythos.

Will you now accept that the figure of Jesus, whether he existed or not, is associated with a significant amount of largely original teaching? There may be aspects to Jesus Christ which are recycled from ancient mythos, there may be aspects to his teachings which are recycled, but the bulk of it is original material.

Nick

_________________
"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

Yes. From HUMANS. The book is not the inerrant word of God, inspired by God. HUMANS rewrote the stories to their culture. It has nothing to do with a real deity.



Again, HUMANS created them, not some deity. Various writers plagerized other stories from other place and adapted them to their culture.



So you admit you have not read her book. Very interesting.



Fine. Try reading the Hindu texts of Krishna, Buddha, the books of Daoism, and Confucius. You will find many of them them there if you chose to read the texts. I have read them and am reading them, but obviously you have not. It is doable if you desire to read them and you will find these sayings in them. BTW, I also understand the Q document, which DOES predate the gospels, including Thomas has these sayings too. The Q is a collection of various sayings that were collected- probably from the sources I mentioned. They are not the sayings of Jesus.

Anyway, it is that simple. I've done my research and I can tell you haven't even begun. BTW, if I went through it saying by saying, you still wouldn't have access to the source and attempt to deny it, even if I can put my hands right on the text- I have a vast library of various religious text, thanks to my various studies. So, going through it verse by verse is superfulous and a waste of time when I can sum it up so easily.

_________________
Mriana

Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison

Nick, the entire list is riddled with Hindu and Buddhist mentality.

Who created it?

The religious initiates who were well aware of world mysticism and created new religions with that extensive knowledge. Here's a few passages from Campbell about eastern mysticism:

(Myths of Light, p. 6-7 )

"That which is absolutely transcendent of all knowledge is the basis of your own being. It is you, it is immanent within you... you yourself, are that which you would know. However, this you, is not the you that you identify with, not this phenomenon in time and space that can be named, that can be identified, that can be described. that is not it, and so we also have the Sanskrit phrase, NETI NETI - "not this, not this!" Anything that you can name about yourself is not it. Therefore, when you have erased all that can be named and have broken through, then you have come to it. This is a very different sort of calculus. In this equation, A is you and X is the mystery and A=X - you are the mystery."

("Myths of light: eastern metaphors of the eternal")

"When consciousness is awake, what one sees seems to be separate from oneself - SUBJECT AND OBJECT are separate from each other. On this level, Aristotelian logic prevails: A is not B. "U" (in AUM) is associated with dream consciousness. When you move into the level of dream consciousness, all the laws of logic change. There, although you think you are seeing something that is not you, it is you that you are seeing, because a dream is simply a manifestation of your own will and energy-you created the dream and yet you are surprised be it. So the DUALITY there is ILLUSARY. There, SUBJECT AND OBJECT, thought apparently separate, are the same.

The Realms of the gods and demons-heaven, purgatory, hell - are of the substance of dreams. Myth, in this view is the DREAM OF THE WORLD. If we accept gods as objective realities, then they are the counter part of your dream - this is a very important point - dream and myth are of the same logic... and since the subject and object seem to be separate, but are not separate in the dream, so the gods that seem to be outside of you in myth, or religion if you would prefer, are not different from you. You and your GOD are ONE. Now we are moving into something very interesting. All the heavens and gods are WITHIN YOU and are identical with aspects of your own consciousness on the dream level."


P.71 "The whole aim of oriental religions, in contrast to ours, is to bring about in us an experience of our IDENTITY with that VOID, WHICH IS NO VOID, what the Buddhist's call sunyata. It is beyond all description. That which is true mystery and being, is beyond naming, beyond imaging. So that any name or image that pretends to be the name or image of the ultimate thing is a FALSE IMAGE; it is a mere idol. The goal of these religions is to help us realize that that being which is transcendent of definition is our own being. (A=X)"


The Chhandogya Upanishad, chapter 12

Bring me a fruit of that banyan tree.

- here it is sir

break it

- It is broken, venerable sir

what do you see there?

- These seeds, exceedingly small

break one of these, my son

- it is broken, venerable sir

The father said, "what do you see there?"

- nothing at all, venerable sir

the father said: that subtle essence, my dear, which you do not perceive there - from that very essence this great banyan arises. Believe me my dear. Now that which is the subtle essence - in it ALL THAT EXISTS has it's SELF. That is the TRUE. That is the SELF. Thou art That (tat tvam asi).


The gospel of Thomas, logion77

Jesus said, "I am the light that is over ALL THINGS - I am ALL: from me ALL came fourth, and to me ALL attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

Where did the Gnostic gospels come from?

From a collection of existing mysticism that had been around for centuries and was based on the ancient astrotheological structure of mythology the whole time. There's no escaping this. The Hindu and Buddhist traditions are built on astrotheology just as the Egyptian religion, and so when religious initiates start creating a new form of religion and take in aspects from a variety of cultures that are each grounded in astrolotheology the new religion is nothing more than a compilation of astrotheology.

Christianity is just that.

It no more valid or invalid than the various astro-mystical traditions that it has been built out of.

When Thomas was written is irrelevant. It was written to include basic Upanishadic philosophy by the religious initiates that wrote each and every gospel that exists whenever they wrote each and every Gospel that exists.

Yahshua serves the same purpose as Krishna or Buddha - to speak of the SUN pointing back at the creative principle of the universe that shines through the light of the SUN. None of these figures are historical entities, and all of these figures are symbolic character in storyline astro-mysticism. They speak of the SUN and they relate deep philosophical aspects of the SUN down to humanity here on the earth through a system of anthropomorphic reasoning.

Get with the program Nick.

I'm telling you that there is no conflict between mysticism and astrotheology and you keep clinging to these elaborate preconceived ideas that you've formed that suggest to you that there is a conflict.

All mysticism is "astro-mysticsm" because all mysticism has evolved out of observing the natural universe and coming up with creative ways to express a UNITY existing between everything that exists in the natural universe.

A=X

"Because no one aspect of the universe can be separated away from the whole, the only real you, or self, is the whole" (Alan Watts)

This is the Upanishads, this is Gnosticism.

Its all about the "All", or simply "The Whole".

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

Well, the issue of whether "God" is creating something is a little complex here, in my opinion. To the mystic Christians I would say that they fundamentally believed that everything was being created by God, albeit much of it through the experience of the human ego.

However, to me, the real issue that is raised by considering the Gospel of Thomas, is that the character identified as Jesus clearly does have a very deep mystical knowledge which is being imparted through the sayings Thomas records. Some of it may well have come to him or her from other sources, but what is clear to me is that this character does have a transcendental knowledge.

It is certainly not a case of plagiarism, imo. The reason for this is that it is one thing to read, say, the Dhammapada, it is quite another thing entirely to so grasp the essence of it as to be able to write a commentary or to re-package it authentically. Anyone can read the book, few can really grasp where the writer is trying to take you.

It is the same with the Gospel of Thomas. To me, the sayings attributed to Jesus very likely do come directly from an authentic mystic of the time.

Nick

_________________
"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

Then give me an astrotheological rendition of Thomas 1-7. If there's no escaping it, this shouldn't take you too long.

I'm sorry, Tat, but when I hear something self-evidently dubious being touted as inescapably true I get skeptical. Prove my skepticism wrong.



Well, by means of proving this statement you have thus far given me what I consider a highly abstract proposed source for the "Virgin Birth." On the basis of this, I would consider your statements above acutely dubious. You can twist anything around to be astrotheological, if your mind so desires. I have yet to see anything that I consider to be reasonably convincing being actually presented by you.




But Jesus doesn't actually speak about the sun very much, does he? I don't think it's even mentioned once in the Gospel of Thomas.

It's all very well to have these fancy ideas of what is happening in the Gospels, but if you actually look you will see that they aren't much borne out. Sounds good, I don't deny it, but if you just look at the text you see it isn't really true. Many a wonderful sounding theory has been tragically brought down by evidence.

What I submit is happening in the Gospel of Thomas is the record of an individual with clearly great mystical awareness talking in riddles to followers. The riddles serve to challenge the mind of the listener to understand or grasp what is meant. This technique survives to this day in a myriad satsangs where questions are answered and ad hoc teachings given.



Actually, if you care to examine mystical Christian doctrines you will find that it's much more about purifying and increasing the power of the ego, extending the development of the individual into full spiritual maturity.

You make these sweeping statements, Tat, but I don't find you back them up.

Nick

_________________
"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

HINDUISM:

(The Chhandogya Upanishad, chapter 12)

Bring me a fruit of that banyan tree.

- here it is sir

break it

- It is broken, venerable sir

what do you see there?

- These seeds, exceedingly small

break one of these, my son

- it is broken, venerable sir

The father said, "what do you see there?"

- nothing at all, venerable sir

the father said: that subtle essence, my dear, which you do not perceive there - from that very essence this great banyan arises. Believe me my dear. Now that which is the subtle essence - in it ALL THAT EXISTS has it's SELF. That is the TRUE. That is the SELF. Thou art That (tat tvam asi).

GNOSTIC CHRISTIANITY:

(The gospel of Thomas, logion77)

Jesus said, "I am the light that is over ALL THINGS - I am ALL: from me ALL came fourth, and to me ALL attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

Oh? And you having no instruction can grasp it?

Here's what I think:



Translation by Patrick Olivelle

Now apply this to yourself, who is quite arrogant.

_________________
Mriana

Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison

1) And He said, "Whoever finds the interpretation of these
sayings will not experience death." (The idea of the eternal Solar Consciousness)

2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he
finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes
troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All." (Man and Cosmos are ONE)

3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say, 'See, the Kingdom is
in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they
say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and
you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living
Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty
and it is you who are that poverty." (The unity of the Macrocosm and the Microcosm as one - the eternal realm of existence)

4) Jesus said, "The man old in days will not hesitate to ask a
small child seven days old about the place of life, and he will
live. For many who are first will become last, and they will
become one and the same." (The signs of the zodiac according to the yearly cycle combined with procession = first last / last first, it's a reference to cycles)

5) Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which
is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing
hidden which will not become manifest." (The creative principle of the cosmos being referred to)

6) His disciples questioned Him and said to Him, "Do you want
us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet
shall we observe?"
Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered." (The creative principle of the cosmos being referred to)

7) Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when
consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes,
and the lion becomes man." (Lion = Solar reference and the sign of Leo, very astrological. Other meanings can be attached to the astrological symbolism but that's all that it is, attaching meanings to astrological symbolism)

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

Look Nick, you either didn't listen to "Solar Christmas" or you've failed to address it directly:

http://www.manlyphall.org/mp3/manlyphal ... stmas1.mp3

Take the time to listen to the whole thing. If you're this passionate about knowing what astrotheology is about listen to the lecture from a professional who specialized in teaching what it is.

You'll find that it's an inseparable aspect of all world mysticism.

It's your ignorance of this issue that has been fueling your desire to create a conflict between things that are quite clearly not in conflict at all. Mysticism IS astro-mysticism. Anything that deals with you, or your ego, deals with the COSMOS. You are the COSMOS. Hence, ASTROtheology. When dealing with the cosmos (macrocosm and microcosm as ONE INTERCONNECTED WHOLE) one is dealing with what they themself actually ARE. Mysticism is about YOU, hence mysticism is about the COSMOS.

ASTROTHEOLOGY - "Religion based on the supporting evidence of nature" M.P Hall

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

What is "solar consciousness" and why is it eternal?



You've got to be kidding me!



Oh, come on, Tat. Do me a favour!



Possibly, but doesn't much resonate to me.



Don't think so really.



Not awareness-unconsciousness?



You're making this up as you go along. This sounds more like an alchemical reference if you ask me.

I appreciate that it is no easy task to render these statements into clear language, and that it is largely subjective, but to me there is barely a grain of likely mystical truth here. I remain completely unconvinced you have any grasp of the material.

Nick

_________________
"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

Tat,

You cannot place mysticism within one symbol set. I'm sorry, but any true mystic is 100% aware of this. This is why they talk in riddles, not to hide some mystical system which lies below the surface but because this is actually the only way to communicate.

Esoteric schools that work with symbols never work with just one set of symbols, because they are aware that to do so renders their entire oeuvre invalid. You study a multiplicity of symbol systems simultaneously - certainly a good ten.

Your whole focus is to me Eastern in outlook. It has only the significance over here that the little dot in the yang does. Western mysticism is not about becoming one with the universe. Samadhi states are eschewed, and not given much attention. It is about developing the powers of the ego to full spiritual maturity. This is the wisdom school that was founded with Christianity. You sit here and discuss things as though there was only one system.

Nick

_________________
"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

Speak to me from a knowledge of the Solar Christmas lecture.

Let's take a look specifically at the evolution of world mysticism.

How did it start out and what happened to it as time went on?

The answers are all waiting for you in the provided link.

ASTROTHEOLOGY - "Religion based on the supporting evidence of nature" M.P Hall

Nature = Cosmos, Man / ego.

Religion based on Man / ego IS religion based on the supporting evidence of NATURE.

Man / ego IS nature,

Nature IS cosmos,

Man / ego, Nature, and the whole cosmos are inseparable aspects of the same thing.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

What has time or evolution got to do with anything? Are you not aware of what Ha-Shamaim refers to? This is the whole thrust of mystic Christianity. It has nothing to do with time. The relationship between Heaven and Earth in Genesis 1 is not a temporal relationship. You are failing to grasp one of the most elementary aspects of the doctrine you are trying to discuss.

The Fall of the Gnostics didn't happen at a moment in time. The Cheviot Ha-Kelim of Lurianic Kabbalah did not happen at a moment in time. It is happening now. The experience of time is one of the results.

Nick

_________________
"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

The mysticism you speak of has evolved into being.

Talk about the lecture Nick.

Give specific examples.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?