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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:44 am 
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Thor

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Ok. After watching up to 1:25 of From Jesus to Christ – The First Christians part 1 basically a retell of the spread of Christianity from the point of view of the NT, it doesn’t make sense to me; a Jewish sect, hated among the Empire, converting their fellow Romans by the bushel, c’mon something is out of whack here. I'm still confused, though I understand how Christianity grew in Egypt and why. However, how was it able to not only spread throughout the Roman Empire, but also overcome the centuries old stronghold of polytheism, and eventually become THE state religion of the empire? I would really appreciate a scientific explanation. Thank you!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:14 am 
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The first things that come to mind are when Emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman Empire in 324 and the mass destruction of the Pagan world that ensued afterward, which aggressively forced many to convert to Christianity or suffer the consequences i.e. torture, execution, death and all sorts of other lovely things like that.

Quote:
Pagan Destruction Chronology (314-870 C.E)

314
Immediately after its full legalisation, the Christian Church attacks the Gentiles: The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess Artemis.

324
Emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman Empire. At Dydima, Asia Minor, he sacks the Oracle of God Apollo and tortures its Pagan priests to death. He also evicts the Gentiles from Mt. Athos and destroys all local Hellenic Temples.

326
Emperor Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the Temple of God Asclepius in Aigeai of Cilicia and many Temples of Goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenice, Baalbek, etc.

330
Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the Pagan Temples in Greece to decorate Nova Roma (Constantinople), the new capital of his Empire.

335
Constantine sacks many Pagan Temples of Asia Minor and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of "all magicians and soothsayers". Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatros.

341
Emperor Constas, son of Constantinus, persecutes "all the soothsayers and the Hellenists". Many Gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed.

346
New large - scale persecutions against the Gentiles in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as... "magician".

353
An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship through sacrifices and "idols".

354
A new edict of Constantius orders the closing of all Pagan Temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Executions of Pagan priests. First burning of libraries in various cities of the Empire. The first lime factories are built next to closed Pagan Temples. A large part of Sacred Gentile architecture is turned into lime.

356
A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the Pagan Temples and the execution of all "idolaters".

357
Constantius outlaws all methods of Divination (Astrology not excluded).

359
In Skythopolis, Syria, christians organise the first death camps for the torture and execution of arrested Gentiles from all around the Empire.

- Pagan Destruction Chronology (314-870 C.E)

The Origins of Christianity

The Alexandrian Roots of Christianity

The video below reminds me of the chapter in Christ Conspiracy entitled: The Myth of Hebrew Monotheism

Atheism - A History of God (The Polytheistic Origins of Christianity and Judaism)

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2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:22 am 
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Thor

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Thanks for pointing out Constantine and his destructive policies as a major key player, but how did the Christians around the Mediterranean reach the point of drawing the attention of a royal assassin like Constantine? In other words, prior to that time how did they overcome the hatred from their fellow Romans plus the entrenchment of the old religions in the first place, and still grow in large numbers in a relatively short period of time comprising 200 to 250 years, to finally end up seriously considered as allies to the family murdering emperor?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:52 am 
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Thor

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The Alexandrian roots of Christianity link (explanation already located in my copy of CIE, sorry my bad) helped me understand the formulation of this religion more. But I'd like to see more evidence of the newly fabricated Serapis/Jesus widespread acceptance in the empire or perhaps I need to read it again.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:05 pm 
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Thor

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After reading that link again a second time, I understood that the new Christian religion with Christ/Serapis grafted with Hebrew religious concepts and passed as an historical savior would be more convincing than the old religions. Nonetheless, We see later in history that Christianity was only overwhelmingly accepted when such state as Spain (where I was born BTW) imposed it on all sectors of society like in the case of the Americas. On the other hand, during English colonialism in India where there were no such impositions, to this day that country shows a nation with a small Christian minority. Then prior to Constantine, what was the mechanism that led to the Christian conversion of large numbers of Roman citizens?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:35 pm 
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Well if you've read through the Alexandrian Roots of Christianity then you already know about the mystical brotherhood spread all over the region and beyond that went by designations such as Therapeut and Essene, etc. And deeper yet, there was a pre-existing hierarchical system with decans and all. This was all in place before and coming into the early common era. Plus there appears to have been several different gnostic savior types floating around in this environment through the first century and into the second if you add in Earl Doherty's analysis. We're more or less talking about one of many existing savior myths which was able to eventually weed out the others, although leaving many hints as the others were amalgamated into the orthodoxy presentation. That's essentially why the gospel Jesus is a composite character of both mythical and historical characters pasted together and presented as one. This didn't happen over night.

I see an inner struggle between various savior myth sects which resulted in the rise of an orthodox tradition based on amalgamation of various savior myths. Then it took time for the orthodox tradition to become dominant. But after becoming the dominant sect and therefore taking control of this entire pre-existing brotherhood that had been spread wide throughout the empire since before the common era, there was a candidate for state religion with impressive numbers behind it. The next step was getting the attention of Constantine. From there sky's the limit. Like you said, this religion was then imposed on everyone. I don't know if that settles your question, but if you put Doherty and Murdock together several likely scenarios come into view.

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:51 pm 
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Thor

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The brotherhood, that has to be the key. Yeah, I read about it in The Alexandrian Roots of Christianity chapter of CIE and on the link. I have to read it again so the evidence presented sinks in. Its center was at Alexandria an already privileged city in the empire, exempt of having to pay several taxes for at least the first 2 hundred years of its Roman status. And if Philo was its leader in the beginning of the 1st century, the members of this brotherhood might have been part of the elite part of the Roman world. So rather than have a foreign external conquering force bringing their religion with them, the empire wide brotherhood became numerous, and influential enough to draw the attention of the murderous opportunist Constantine. Thank you very much for the clarification.

I wonder how many Roman citizens were not Christians during the 4th century but were forced to convert? This ancient Christian brotherhood plunged us into the dark ages, and many numerous other calamities as well. Like I said in my other Battle of Actium thread, too bad Anthony and Cleopatra were not victorious.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:54 am 
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Hercules

Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:11 pm
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FTA

I am wondering where you got the chronology from that you listed.

Quote:
Quote:
Pagan Destruction Chronology (314-870 C.E)

314
Immediately after its full legalisation, the Christian Church attacks the Gentiles: The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess Artemis.

324
Emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman Empire. At Dydima, Asia Minor, he sacks the Oracle of God Apollo and tortures its Pagan priests to death. He also evicts the Gentiles from Mt. Athos and destroys all local Hellenic Temples.

326
Emperor Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the Temple of God Asclepius in Aigeai of Cilicia and many Temples of Goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenice, Baalbek, etc.

330
Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the Pagan Temples in Greece to decorate Nova Roma (Constantinople), the new capital of his Empire.

335
Constantine sacks many Pagan Temples of Asia Minor and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of "all magicians and soothsayers". Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatros.

341
Emperor Constas, son of Constantinus, persecutes "all the soothsayers and the Hellenists". Many Gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed.

346
New large - scale persecutions against the Gentiles in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as... "magician".

353
An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship through sacrifices and "idols".

354
A new edict of Constantius orders the closing of all Pagan Temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Executions of Pagan priests. First burning of libraries in various cities of the Empire. The first lime factories are built next to closed Pagan Temples. A large part of Sacred Gentile architecture is turned into lime.

356
A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the Pagan Temples and the execution of all "idolaters".

357
Constantius outlaws all methods of Divination (Astrology not excluded).

359
In Skythopolis, Syria, christians organise the first death camps for the torture and execution of arrested Gentiles from all around the Empire.


It was my understanding that Constantine only allowed the Christian religion to be practiced, and it was Theodosius in 391 CE who outlawed ALL religions in the Roman Empire, except for the Roman Catholic Church.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/ent ... ristianity

Rik


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:13 am 
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Tellurian wrote:
FTA

I am wondering where you got the chronology from that you listed.

It was my understanding that Constantine only allowed the Christian religion to be practiced, and it was Theodosius in 391 CE who outlawed ALL religions in the Roman Empire, except for the Roman Catholic Church.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/ent ... ristianity

Rik

I provided the link at the bottom of my previous post:

Quote:
391
On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to Pagan Temples but also looking at vandalised statues. New heavy persecutions all around the Empire. In Alexandria, Egypt, the Gentiles, led by the philosopher Olympius, revolt and after some street fights, finally lock themselves inside the fortified Temple of God Serapis (The Serapeion). After a violent siege, the christians occupy the building, demolish it, burn its famous Library and profane the cult images.

- Pagan Destruction Chronology (314-870 C.E)

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The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:46 am 
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I see you've already raised some of these issues here, but my reiterative response is that you can find the explanations of how this all came about in my books, in lengthy chapters such as "Alexandria: Crucible of Christianity." The elite did as they always do: They sold out the common people by taking their traditions and reworking them around those who had the most amount of money.

In my writings on this particular subject, I discuss the influential Jewish philosopher Philo Judaeus of Alexandria, whose uncle was purportedly the wealthiest individual in the Roman Empire. Philo's works were spread far and wide. In them, he complains that the great Israelite prophet is being ignored by the world, so he sets out to correct that oversight with a long piece of propaganda that clearly had its effect. Since Philo's family was extremely wealthy, they could promote this propaganda all over the place. In this way, they created a huge interest in Jewish stories.

The average pious Jews themselves, however, were considered troublesome and were highly disliked (see Diodorus and Seneca). The Jewish elitists such as Philo's family hung around with the Roman elites, including the emperors, and were not detested like the rabid, xenophobic fanatics. The evidence indicates that the rich Romans and Jews collaborated in this endeavor, which had several misfires (Serapis, Chrestos, etc.) for many decades until the end of the second century, when it was relatively solidified by the publication of the four canonical gospels as we have them.

One would be correct to be skeptical of the claim that the Romans would have mindlessly fallen down on their knees before an impoverished Jewish rabblerouser - the mainstream story is ludicrous in that regard. It is clear that the Jewish Jesus character was created for a number of reasons: 1. To promote the Jewish religion; 2. to bring into the fold of Roman rule the troublesome pious Jews by having the Jewish messiah as a mouthpiece for Rome; and 3. to unite the Roman Empire under one state religion.

Here's a nice little summary of what has happened here - from Jewish writer Marcus Ravage, published in The Century Magazine, v. 115, no. 3, The Century Co., NY, 1928, p. 346ff:

Quote:
"Our tribal customs have become the core of your moral code. Our tribal laws have furnished the basic groundwork of all your august constitutions and legal systems. Our legends and our folk-tales are the sacred lore which you croon to your infants. Our poets have filled your hymnals and your prayer-books. Our national history has become an indispensable part of the learning of your pastors and priests and scholars. Our kings, our statesmen, our prophets, our warriors are your heroes. Our ancient little country is your Holy Land. Our national literature is your Holy Bible. What our people thought and taught has become inextricably woven into your very speech and tradition, until no one among you can be called educated who is not familiar with our racial heritage.

"Jewish artisans and Jewish fishermen are your teachers and your saints, with countless statues carved in their image and innumerable cathedrals raised to their memories. A Jewish maiden is your ideal of motherhood and womanhood. A Jewish rebel-prophet is the central figure in your religious worship. We have pulled down your idols, cast aside your racial inheritance, and substituted for them our God and our traditions. No conquest in history can even remotely compare with this clean sweep of our conquest over you."

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:28 pm 
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Hercules

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FTA

When I previously looked at your reference I saw it just linking to one of your earlier posts, but now that I look deeper I see that your previous post used the Supreme Council for Ethnic Hellenes as your source for your chronology. I will need to look deeper into what they are all about.

Rik


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:25 pm 
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Quote:
Ok. After watching up to 1:25 of From Jesus to Christ – The First Christians part 1 basically a retell of the spread of Christianity from the point of view of the NT, it doesn’t make sense to me; a Jewish sect, hated among the Empire, converting their fellow Romans by the bushel, c’mon something is out of whack here. I'm still confused, though I understand how Christianity grew in Egypt and why. However, how was it able to not only spread throughout the Roman Empire, but also overcome the centuries old stronghold of polytheism, and eventually become THE state religion of the empire? I would really appreciate a scientific explanation. Thank you!


Mighty Agrippa, thank you for this great question, and welcome.

For a scientific explanation of why Christianity triumphed, we have to understand the political purpose of religion, and also the mythic inputs.

The Roman Emperors saw religion as useful for political stability and unity, as noted by Gibbon in his famous line in Decline and Fall, that people saw religions as equally true, philosophers saw religions as equally false and magistrates (rulers) saw all religions as equally useful. So the rulers required a symbol that would serve the imperial interests of unity and stability. The sun had provided this function through the cult of Sol Invictus, the invincible sun. Jesus Christ supplanted the sun god, by anthropomorphising key features of the sun – shining on the just and unjust, born at the low point of the solar year at Christmas as the sun began its annual northward trek towards summer, and dying and rising at the spring point as winter gave way to new life.

More than this match to the natural symbolism of the sun, Jesus also served a powerful psychological and political function of conferring moral legitimacy on Rome. Paul’s instruction in Romans 13 to obey the rulers and look to the afterlife for redemption served to displace and sublimate rebellion. This social legitimising function can also be seen in the political framework of the mandate of heaven. An empire can be gained by the sword, but it cannot be ruled for long by the sword. Communities have to support the status quo for the empire to function smoothly, or too many resources will be required to suppress dissent, weakening the system to external attack. In order to gain this moral legitimacy of the mandate of heaven, Rome had to admit its faults.

The faults of Rome were neatly encapsulated in the mythic archetype of Mark’s story of the passion of Christ, that when the perfect man had appeared in the world, the response was denial and murder. Rome had to admit that its blood-soaked expansion had not recognised the legitimate rights of the nations it had conquered. But this admission was a bitter pill. If this admission of guilt could be placed within a moral framework that said despite the evil of the high powers of the world, nonetheless Rome was anointed by God, a narrative path could be found to justify imperial rule. Enter Jesus. Christianity presents an ambiguous story of human guilt, with Pilate ultimately responsible for the death of Jesus but only acting at the instigation of the Jews, who then provided a convenient scapegoat as Christ killers, even though the high priest said the only reason the Jews handed Jesus over was that otherwise Rome would destroy them.

Looking at the evolution of the Christ myth scientifically and historically, we also really have to place it within the coherent cosmic framework provided by astrotheology, as Acharya has argued at length here. Astrotheology is immensely controversial, because most scholars remain infected by their supernatural upbringing or its atheist antithesis, and find the new synthesis provided by astrotheology to be impossible to understand, and reject it out of hand as disreputable speculation. But this rejection simply fails to see the coherence of the cosmic basis of Christianity as it emerged from the pervasive ancient practice of star worship.

Ancient Egyptian religion started from the scientific premise ‘as above so below’, an idea that found its way into the Lord’s Prayer with the line ‘thy will be done on earth as in heaven’. To see how the will of God was done in heaven was an imaginary task that the ancient seers performed through observation of the stars, against the framework provided by the line from Peter and the Psalmist that a thousand years is as a day to God. Looking at this very slow cosmic day of God, the primary marker is the precession of the equinoxes.

The New Testament provides abundant coded references which show that the idea of Christ was founded in observation of the stars, as an earthly allegory for what they could see happening in the sky. The time of Pilate was selected as the ‘alpha omega’ moment, the turning point of time from BC to AD, for the simple and sound observational reason that the spring point of the position of the sun at the March equinox precessed from Aries into Pisces in 21 AD. This great slow movement of the heavens provided the big slow context for the history of the Roman Republic and Empire, a shift from an old pagan age to a new age of belief, from ‘I am’ (Aries) to ‘I believe’ (Pisces), from separation and variety to a common era. The other pole of the equinox, autumn, also matches directly to this cosmology, with the shift from the equinox in Libra (law) to Virgo (grace) matching directly to Paul’s vision that ‘you are no longer under law but under grace’.

A really fascinating scientific issue arising from this material is how successfully and thoroughly it was suppressed by Christian orthodoxy. The interest of Empire required that its moral framework have a supernatural magical stamp, that God as a personal entity should intervene physically in the world. But this whole stellar basis in observation of precession is deeply inconvenient for the populist agenda of Jesus Christ as a real person, so the cosmology at the foundation of Christian ideation was denied, suppressed, ignored and forgotten. After constructing Christ on the model of the stars, the church ‘pulled up the ladder’ and set about concealing its tracks by burning heretics and their books. So we only have glimpses of this foundational cosmology.

Those glimpses provide forensic clues that admit of no other coherent explanation than precession of the equinox as the scientific framework for the construction of Christian myth. Certainly the entire historicist literal story of Jesus is entirely farcical, since Paul never explicitly references Jesus Christ as the historical founder of Christianity. The spread of Christianity matches to the widespread transformation of a common idea, more like a 'Cambrian Explosion' happening everywhere when conditions were right than a 'Big Bang' spreding from a single starting point. Christianity transformed the widespread idea of a sun god into a man, who is marked as holy by his emergence from a neglected corner of the world. The evidence does not match at all to the 'Big Bang' myth of Jesus as the actual historical ‘pioneer and perfecter of faith’ as he is described in the Epistle to the Hebrews.

As the faith gradually evolved, the fictional imagination of Mark came to be interpreted as actual history. All the evidence was then systematically corrupted and amended to support this false premise of Jesus as historical, rather like the way Procrustes sawed off the legs of his guests so they could fit in his bed. George Orwell well describes the political syndrome in his book 1984, which really analyses Russia on the model of the Roman Church, especially with his line that Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia, and the systematic amendment of evidence to serve this false political premise. Since the church held that only the antichrist denies the incarnation, it had abundant motive to amend and destroy all contrary evidence.

The loaves and fishes is the single miracle that appears in all four Gospels. It was obviously central to the esoteric teachings of the early Christian sect. But now it is an obscure mystery, since it obviously did not actually happen. Symbolically, the loaves and fishes represent Virgo and Pisces, the stellar equinox poles of the new age, symbolising cosmic abundance. So Christianity was able to say that its story of Jesus, the beginning and end of the ages, was written in the stars. The actual message that was written in the stars was held as a Gnostic secret, and the suppression of Gnosticism meant this message was lost.

But now, as we move towards a next new age on the cosmic wheel of time, Aquarius-Leo, we can start to look at the Pisces-Virgo age as a whole, seeing how the Christian dogma has strong natural correlation in observation and in psychological and political needs. By systematically removing the false supernatural interpretation, the real allegorical meaning of the Christian symbols can start to be understood.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:16 pm 
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The huge power vacuum left in the wake of the Crisis of The Third Century made fertile ground for a power hungry Machiavellian character such as Constantine to enter the scene in the 4th Century. Roman institutions had become degraded enough that power hungry megalomaniacs could ascend to throne by sheer force and put into place an all encompassing national myth, a Noble Lie, that not only would help insure the reign of Constantine and his cronies but would also ensure the reign of an institution which would survive into perpetuity.

The Noble Lie was Christianity. The institution was The Catholic Church.

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