Freethought Nation

Tat,
I have to correct myself on this matter:

The alignment shall of course not be connected to the datum´s themselves, but to a star-alignment-line (The "Norse Ruler Line") from Sirius - over the celestial pole area - to Vega in Lyra and prolonging this line further to the star constellation of Sagittarius, the centre of our galaxy.

Robert just posted these screen caps to follow up on the Mayan interpretation claims:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3958&p=24287#p24287
The winter solstice sunrise is of course far from the galactic center on 12/21/98, but that's when the sun crossed the galactic plane. It won't be anywhere near the galactic center on 12/21/12 either, so a simple screen cap can refute just about every doomsday program that I've seen about 2012 airing on TV.

But I'm interested in mapping out the January 4-6 sky. I already checked it for the sunrise and confirmed that the sun does not rise into the dark rift MW galactic center on any of those dates either. So the solstice and January 4-6 have nothing to do with that in modern times.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

From:
Astrology from Ancient Egypt
Robert Tulip
30 November 2011

”Precession combines with the slow rotation of earth’s orbital frame to put the solstices and equinoxes in the positions of the orbital egg that are closest to and furthest from the sun every 21,600 years. These positions on the orbit are called perihelion, when the earth is closest to the sun, now about 4 January each year, and aphelion, when we are furthest from the sun, about 4 July”.

The helions mentioned above, also occurs every year.

When the Earth is closest to the Sun, it is also closest to the Milky Way centre - which is logical since the Earth then is moving against the outgoing momentum from the galactic centre. In my opinion, this is why the Earth orbit the Sun in a elliptic plane.

- Another effect is the 7 day length difference between the Winter (Shortest) and Summer seasons, because of the Earth is moving towards and away from the galactic centre outgoing momentum.

Myths of Saturnus and Chronus – and The Saturn Myth

- Examples of confused deities and how these are described in encyclopaedia’s and books.

If analysing the myths of the Roman Saturnus, and the Greek Chonus, several interpretative issues shows up. It seems that scholars for a long time have been in great troubles connecting the mythological dots in a logical way. In the following, I´ll analyse and describe some of the most common errors. (My Discussion Remarks with bold AD #)

Chronus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus

In the most classic and well known version of Greek mythology, Cronus or Kronos; (Ancient Greek: Κρόνος, Krónos) was the leader and the youngest of the first generation of Titans, divine descendants of Gaia, the earth, and Uranus, the sky. AD 1

Cronus was usually depicted with a sickle or scythe, which was also the instrument he used to castrate and depose Uranus, his father. Cronus was also identified in classical antiquity with the Roman deity Saturn.

Etymology

H. J. Rose, A Handbook of Greek Mythology (1928, observed that attempts to give Kronos a Greek etymology have failed. AD 2

Recently, Janda (2010) offers a genuinely Indo-European etymology of "the cutter", from the root *(s)ker- "to cut" (Greek κείρω, c.f. English shear), motivated by Cronus' characteristic act of "cutting the sky" (or the genitals of anthropomorphic Uranus). The Indo-Iranian reflex of the root is kar, generally meaning "to make, create" (whence karma), but Janda argues that the original meaning "to cut" in a cosmogonic sense is still preserved in some verses of the Rigveda pertaining to Indra's heroic "cutting", like that of Cronus resulting in creation:

RV 10.104.10 ārdayad vṛtram akṛṇod ulokaṃ "he hit Vrtra fatally, cutting [> creating] a free path" - RV 6.47.4 varṣmāṇaṃ divo akṛṇod "he cut [> created] the loftiness of the sky."

This may point to an older Indo-European mytheme reconstructed as *(s)kert wersmn diwos "by means of a cut he created the loftiness of the sky. In the Song of Ullikummi, Teshub uses the "sickle with which heaven and earth had once been separated" to defeat the monster Ullikumm establishing that the "castration" of the heavens by means of a sickle as part of a creation myth, in origin a cut creating an opening or gap between heaven and earth enabling the beginning of time (Chronos) and human history.

A theory debated in the 19th century, and sometimes still offered somewhat apologetically, holds that Kronos is related to "horned", assuming a Semitic derivation from qrn. Andrew Lang's objection, that Cronus was never represented horned in Hellenic art, was addressed by Robert Brown, arguing that in Semitic usage, as in the Hebrew Bible qeren was a signifier of "power". When Greek writers encountered the Levantine deity El, they rendered his name as Kronos”. AD 3

Saturn/Saturnus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_%28mythology%29

In ancient Roman religion and myth, Saturn (Latin: Saturnus) was a major god presiding over agriculture and the harvest time. His reign was depicted as a Golden Age of abundance and peace by many Roman authors. In medieval times he was known as the Roman god of agriculture, justice and strength. He held a sickle in his left hand and a bundle of wheat in his right. His mother was Terra and his father was Caelus. AD 4

Saturn's wife was Ops (the Roman equivalent of Rhea) and Saturn was the father of Ceres, Jupiter, Veritas, Pluto, Neptune, and Juno, among others. Saturn is the namesake of both Saturn, the planet, and Saturday (dies Saturni).

He was identified in classical antiquity with the Greek deity Cronus, and the mythologies of the two gods are commonly mixed. In Hesiod's Theogony, a mythological account of the creation of the universe and Zeus' rise to power, Cronus is mentioned as the son of Uranus (the Greek equivalent of Roman Caelus), the heavens, and Gaia (the Greek equivalent of Terra), the earth.

According to Greco-Roman mythology, the first inhabitants of the world were the children of Terra (Mother Earth) and Caelus (Father Sky). These creatures were very large and manlike, but without human qualities. They were the qualities of Earthquake, Hurricane and Volcano living in a world where there was yet no life. There were only the irresistible forces of nature creating mountains and seas. AD 5

Discussion:

AD 1: “Gaia, the Earth” is not correct. Hesiod's Theogony (116ff) tells how, after Chaos, arose broad-breasted Gaia, the everlasting foundation of the gods of Olympus. She brought forth Uranus, the starry sky, her equal, to cover her, the hills (Ourea), and the fruitless deep of the Sea, Pontus, "without sweet union of love," out of her own self through parthenogenesis.

- “Gaia, the Earth” cannot of course give birth to the “Uranus, the starry sky”. Gaia is clearly a heavenly Mother Goddess who gives birth to everything in our galaxy. In this sense “she” is the matrix of the physical formation in our galaxy and the interpretative confusion with “Earth” deals with the mytheme of “creating the first firm land/hill/Primeval Mound/Mountain” in the sea of Pontus, the Primeval Waters. (But how can one understand this if not having any idea of the concrete knowledge of the Creation which is connected to the Milky Way Mythology?)

In Greek mythology, the ourea (Greek: Oὔρεα "mountains," plural of Oὔρος) were progeny of Gaia, members of the Protogenoi, who were the first-born elemental gods and goddesses, children of Gaia: And she brought forth long hills, graceful haunts of the goddess Nymphs who dwell amongst the glens of the hills.

AD 2: To give Cronos/Kronos a Greek etymology is of course not easy - unless one knows which celestial object gives the origin of attributes and qualities.

The cutter; cutting the sky; cutting a free path; he cut the loftiness of the sky. “Cronos uses the sickle with which heaven and earth had once been separated". Cronos uses the sickle “to defeat” the monster, Ullikumm”, the underworld Milky Way creature on the Earth southern hemisphere. Not to “defeat the monster” but to show/tell where this creature resides opposite the northern hemisphere Milky Way Cronos deity. (Ullikummi is a giant stone monster, son of Kumarbi and the sea god's daughter. Kumarbi is known from a number of mythological Hittite texts, sometimes summarized under the term "Kumarbi Cycle". These texts notably include the myth of The Kingship in Heaven)

- When looking at a star atlas with the Milky Way contours, one can easily depict how a male figure on the northern hemisphere holds a sicle/sword in his left hand and the tip of this sicle or sword marks the upper boundary of the half hemisphere of the northern Milky Way contours. Link: http://www.native-science.net/God.Attributes.htm

AD 3: Cronos is related to "horned" issues and attributes, as this image of the northern hemisphere Milky Way contour clearly indicates by a Swedish Rock Art and the Egyptian Seth.

AD 4: Saturnus has of course the same qualities and attributes as Cronos – and this deity is also described with the same mythical confusion, regarding “his mother was Terra and his father was Caelus”. It is of course not the Earth and Caelus that gives birth to Saturnus. We are talking of primeval deities in the creation and the Earth is not even created in this stage.

Quotes: “Romans appealed to Terra over earthquakes, and along with the grain goddess Ceres, she was responsible for the productivity of farmland”. - “The two words Terra and Tellus are thought to derive from the formulaic phrase tersa tellus, meaning "dry land". - “According to The Oxford Classical Dictionary, Terra refers to the element earth (one of the four basic elements of earth, air, water, and fire) and Tellus refers to the guardian deity of Earth and by extension the globe itself”.

The last sentence gets it almost right: Terra is connected to all elements and to the creational interaction between these elements. The scholarly confusion stating “Terra as Mother Earth”, takes place when interpreting the earth-element as the Earth instead of earth = soil, as in the astrophysical 00.01 % “molecular dust” contained in the known Universe.

Saturnus´ mother, Terra, represents the galactic Mother Goddess who creates everything in our Milky Way together with Caelus.

“According to Cicero and Hyginus, Caelus was the son of Aether who is one of the Protogenoi, the first-born elementals. He is the personification of the upper sky, space, and heaven, and is the elemental god of the "Bright, Glowing, Upper Air”.

- So, Saturnus is born when the “bright glowing Caelus” gives movement to the 4 elements that first create the Primeval Mound from where the Milky Way Goddess rise/create herself in the centre of our galaxy and further more create the galactic arms that shows the Mother Goddess on the Earth southern hemisphere and the Saturnus figure on the Earth northern hemisphere night sky.

AD 5: The largest mythological images and deities origin from the largest "object" in the sky, namely the Milky Way contours which gives names to Giants; Cyclops and the Norse Jaetter.

“The Saturn Myth”

The myth of Saturnus has given origin for this book, written by David Talbott, in where he tries to describe “a time when some planets were positioned much closer to the Earth” – “a catastrophist theme” originally started off by Emanuel Velikovski in his book “Worlds in Collision”.

Because of similar deity names given to genuine and superior deities of creation and to some planets, both authors conclude a wrong idea and hypothesis, even though David Talbott is working excellent in finding relevant comparative symbols and texts, he still gets it all wrong, connecting the Milky Way deities of Saturnus; Venus and Mars to the planets of the same names. This historical confusion leads him of course to the wrong assumptions and hypothesis and it all end up in a strange kind of distorted astrology.

- Unfortunately, this confusion goes on in many cases, hindering a more global and universal interpretation of the myths and their cosmological meaning.

- Never the less, reading his book and other works is very interesting if remembering the fact that we are talking of primeval elementary deities from before the beginning of creation and the first physically emerging on the Primeval Mound and further out in the galactic arms where the 2 first images of creation shows the first physical contours of the Milky Way deities, mythologically and globally described as both animals and humanlike beings on the night sky.

- As an introduction to such a study, I can recommend further reading of:
“Origin of Myths” by David Talbott - http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/v ... f=13&t=245
"Saturn Theory" - http://www.jordanmaxwell.com/documents/ ... theory.pdf
"Ship of Heaven" - http://www.bearfabrique.org/Catastrophi ... ipart.html - where the Milky Way crescent figures represents the Heavenly Ships.

- JUST REMENBER TO THINK “ELEMENTARY AND THE 2 HEMISPHERE FIRST MILKY WAY CRESCENT DEITIES” EVERYTIME HE MENTION SATURN; VENUS; MARS AND JUPITER.

– THEN ONE GETS THE RIGTH TELLING AND THE RIGTH ARGUMENTS CONNECTED TO THE RIGHT CELESTIAL PHENOMENON AND OBJECT.

- AND THE VERY SAME GOES FOR READING OF THE PRIMARY MYTHS INTERPRETATIONS OTHERWHERE.

King (and Queen) of the Time and Abundance.

Robert Tulip, you wrote:

AD: I agree largely in this, all though, I have some ponderings over “the cosmic God” and Christ as Jesus, representing the Sun in the astrotheologically hypothesis. The sun is not “the cosmic god” in my opinion, because it was not created as the first heavenly object in the stories of creation)

1) In general: The very human concept of “Time” has several implications. It can be measured by the Earth rotation; the lunar cycle; the Venus cycle; the Earth orbit around the sun and by observing the stars (including the sun) that orbit around the centre of our Milky Way galaxy.

2) Father Time - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Time
Father Time is the anthropomorphized depiction of time. He is usually depicted as an elderly bearded man, dressed in a robe and carrying a scythe and an hourglass or other timekeeping device (which represents time's constant one-way movement, and more generally and abstractly, entropy). This image derives from several sources, including the Grim Reaper, Saturn and Chronos, the Greek god Lord of time in Greek mythology.

2) Saturn - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_%28mythology%29
In ancient Roman religion and myth, Saturn (Latin: Saturnus) was a major god presiding over time. His reign was depicted as a Golden Age of abundance and peace by many Roman authors. In medieval times he was known as the Roman god of time, justice, and strength.

AD: “Saturn” is of course not the planet Saturn. As a major god he is above planets and stars and he represents the Milky Way - http://www.saturn-myth-delusion.net/

4) Chronos - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronos
In Greek mythology, Chronos (Ancient Greek: Χρόνος) in pre-Socratic philosophical works is said to be the Personification of Time. His name in Greek means "time" and is alternatively spelled Chronus (Latin spelling) or Khronos.

Chronos was imagined as a god, serpentine in form, with three heads—those of a man, a bull, and a lion. He and his consort, serpentine Ananke (Inevitability), circled the primal world egg in their coils and split it apart to form the ordered universe of earth, sea and sky. He was depicted in Greco-Roman mosaics as a man turning the Zodiac Wheel. Often the figure is named Aeon (Eternal Time), a common alternative name for the god.

AD: Saturn and Chronos are identical deities, both representing the Milky Way contours - http://www.native-science.net/MilkyWay.Contours.htm - on the northern hemisphere.

Both are having the same attributes - http://www.native-science.net/God.Attributes.htm

- It is difficult to imagine and observe how the sun possibly can “turn the zodiac wheel”, but if looking up in the night sky, this imagery easily can be observed as a man-like Milky Way figure revolve around the celestial pole, “dragging the whole celestial world around”, including the zodiacal star constellations.

5) Ananke - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ananke_%28mythology%29

In Greek mythology, Ananke, also spelled Anangke, Anance, or Anagke (Ancient Greek: Ἀνάγκη, from the common noun ἀνάγκη, "force, constraint, necessity"), was a primordial ancient Greek goddess of inevitability, the personification of destiny, necessity and fate. She appears as a serpentine being, and marks the beginning of the cosmos, along with Chronos, in the Orphic cosmogony. Together they surrounded the primal egg of solid matter and so brought about the creation of the ordered universe. The ancient representation of the goddess, is perhaps a torch-bearing figure, but she was also depicted holding a spindle, as the representation of Moira (fate). - http://www.native-science.net/MilkyWay. ... oddess.htm

AD: The serpentine attributes and qualities of both Chronos and Ananke, refers to the Great Serpent that can be observed around the Earth on the night sky, depicting the Milky Way band or river, as in the Norse mythology with the Midgard Serpent.

Both Chronos and Ananke (and Saturnus) are connected to the “very beginning”; to the serpent and to the “cosmic egg” and, as it are told in many stories of creation, the sun and the earth was not created in the beginning. This also fits very well with the first concept of time and with the term of “King of the Ages”.

- Regarding the attributes of “abundance”, the major god and the major goddess must be and are the primal provider of abundance, because they were/are the creators of even the solar system that once was created in the “garden of Eden” in the galactic centre, from where it was expelled and slowly moving further out in the galactic surroundings. – Google search: “deities+abundance” - https://www.google.dk/search?q=deities% ... channel=np

My conclusion:
The creation story deals with a time before the creation of the physical world we can observe now. When this world became physical, time begun and this time is connected to the solar system movements and to the galaxy, that itself is turning.

The term of “King of the Ages” should clearly be connected to the Milky Way deities and the cosmic “long counting of time”, since this Milky Way movement is the longest count of movement/time our ancestors could have measured and imagined.

- In this sense, Jesus is talking of the galactic/cosmic Great Father as the great provider of everything – of course together with the galactic/cosmic Great Mother.

At last, the creative interaction between the Sun and Earth of course are the secondary providers of abundance. (The Sun and the Earth are the son and daughter of the great galactic Milky Way Father and Mother).

@Acharya - you wrote:

AD: From "Identification with Saturn": Shamash was historically associated with the planet Saturn. Morris Jastrow, Jr. identifies Shamash with the planet Saturn. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamash#Identification_with_Saturn

Question: If Shamash represents the sun, how is it then, that he/it historically and scholarly is identified with the planet Saturn?

Hello Acharya – and thanks for your much elaborated answer.

When reading trough the (bolded) statements in the quotes below, it seems to me very clearly that there are these problems involved:

1) The “Romanized” deification of planets, naming these as the same as major; superior and primeval deities.
2) A general confusion regarding the distinction between the objects of “light or white shapes observed in the dark” and “light of the sun”.
3) Confusions between “solar disc circles”; polar circles and even the Milky Way central disk.
4) Some confusion between “lunar deities” and “crescent deities”

Quote 1
Sun and Saturn by Morris Jastrow - Thompson in his Introduction to his collection of astrological reports has noticed that the planet Saturn was also designated as Šamaš, i.e. "sun" by the Babylonian-Assyrian astrologers and he quotes the statement of Hyginus to the effect that Saturn was called "the star of the sun". He has not, however, recognized quite a number of passages in his collection in which this usage occurs. (Several case-references here) In almost all these cases the omen reads enuma(il)Šamaš ina tarbas Sin izziz (or ititiz), i.e. "when Šamaš stands in the halo of the moon". Since this phenomenon can only occur at night, Šamaš cannot of course be the sun. The proof that it is Saturn is furnished by the astrologers themselves...

AD: I´m pretty sure that the interpretation of “when Šamaš stands in the halo of the moon" really should be interpreted as “when Šamaš stands in the shape of the moon”, in a white crescent shape that very well fits the biggest crescent vaulting figure observed in the night sky, namely the crescent Milky Way figure on the northern hemisphere sky.

Quote 2
In the Semitic culture, Saturn is considered the "sun of the night," so this "confusion" is understandable, especially when one realizes that we are dealing with significantly "night-sky people," the Semitic peoples to a one using mainly the lunar calendar. Hence, they put great emphasis on the night sky, and the description of Saturn in this manner is logical. (Or is it?)

AD: Here the “sun of the night” is confused for the light i.e. white shape of Saturnus representing the Milky Way contour, since we are talking of a major and superior deity.

Quote 3
Deemed the "central and everlasting sun" because it served as the "pole star," Saturn is considered the great judge, a role traditionally held also by the day star. In stelli-lunar cultures, such as the desert tribes, the night sky is of greater focus, because it is during the night when most travel occurs, avoiding the scalding sun of day.

AD: Again we have a confusion between both “central” and “sun”. “Central” is here connected to the “pole star” and “pole area” – and “sun” is confused for the white colored shape/figure of the Milky Way that revolve around the pole are, hence it is “deemed to be connected to this central Earth axis pole area that seemingly revolve on the night sky because of the Earth rotation.

Quote 4
Here "Kaiwan your star-god" is Saturn, also transliterated Chiun and Kiyyun, written כיון or Kiyuwn in Hebrew. Strong's H3594 defines Kiyuwn as: Chiun = "an image" or "pillar".

AD: Planet Saturn cannot be observed imaging “a pillar”. Again, the only logical explanation are that the revolving Milky Way Saturnus – or Shamash – are closely connected to the Earth axis pillar that point towards a pole star or to the circled pole area.

Quote 5
Saturn is no less certainly represented by the star Kaiwan, adored by the reprobate Israelites in the desert (Amos 5:26). The same word (interpreted to mean "steadfast") frequently designates, in the Babylonian inscriptions, the slowest-moving planet; while Sakkuth, the divinity associated with the star by the prophet, is an alternative appellation for Ninib, who, as a Babylonian planet-god, was merged with Saturn. (The question is if Ninib is a planetary deity at all)

AD: To be “steadfast” is not to move at all, or at least very little, which of course again refer to the pole point or pole area where stars and constellations move very little. And since planet Saturn not can be identified with any superior deities, it logically cannot be merged with Ninib, firstborn of Bel and with Gula as consort, both referring to major creator deities that gives origin to the whole solar system and its planets.

Besides this, planet Saturn doesn´t come even close to the pole area at all, which better fits the case for the Saturnus/Shamash Milky Way figures. And the slowest moving planet is really Pluto.

About Ninib or Ninurta:
“In the astral-theological system Ninurta was associated with the planet Saturn, or perhaps as offspring or an aspect of Saturn. In his capacity as a farmer-god, there are similarities between (Ninib)-Ninurta and the Greek Titan Kronos, whom the Romans in turn identified with their Titan Saturn. -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninurta

AD: How can planet Saturn possibly be constituted as “a farmer god”? Only primary creator deities can have this mythological attribute. The false deification of planet Saturn reveals itself when giving this planet the superior qualities and attributes of primeval creator deities. An inferior planet cannot be identified as having a superior powers of creation – alone for the reason that all planets are created of and from the first and primeval deities, whom of course and logically themselves CAN be cross-culturally identified since they represents the very same celestial Milky Way object.

Conclusion:
It really all comes together very logically in this quoted sentence: “there are similar identities between Ninib-Ninurta and the Greek Titan Kronos, whom the Romans in turn identified with their Titan Saturn.

Titans are all mythological connected to the very beginning of creation, a formation stage that took place long before our solar system and its planets even were created.

The Roman “Titan Saturn” is not “planet Saturn” but the giant/titanic white Milky Way figures of Saturnus/Shamash/Kronos, etc. etc., the first born out from the Milky Way centre via the primeval deities that created the “first land or soil” on the “Primordial Mound”, and the “first and central light or indeed “the primary sun” in the Milky Way centre.

- All these first born primary gods together with their female consorts, represents the northern and southern hemisphere Milky Way greatest god and goddess figures observable in the sky, of which the primeval female goddess of Venus also very often is confused to be interpreted as the planetary Venus.

When talking of interpreting the creation myths, I think it is very important to realize that these generally are describing a cyclical formation from the very elementary basics to the physical creation of everything. Water; fire; air and soil are all mythical and primeval "deities" which takes part in the creation.

All primeval creation deities belongs to the “before state” and start of the physical creation. In Egyptian mythology - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogdoad - there are 4 primeval deities with both a “female and a male” quality, making a total of 8 primeval deities of the “before stage” of any physical creation.


AD: The interaction between the elements creating an “unbalance” is just a telling technique in order to get the creation story going in which a new entity are created. Ra, “the fiery sun” is the first to be created. This is not the sun as we know it, but the enormous central light on the Primordial Mound, from where everything is created in the centre of our Milky Way galaxy.


AD: Ra is here the first light to be created and this primeval light appears in the centre of our galaxy. He is not “the rising sun” but he represents the first light that creates and recreates everything in the galactic circuit, hence the symbol of Khepri, the scarab beetle of recreation and resurrection.

General remarks:
- I think it is fair to state that the systematic cosmic knowledge of our ancestors at the most included our galaxy. The contours of our galaxy are observable all over the Earth and it is my conviction that the observation of the galactic contours gives origin to the Creation Stories all over the world, which is confirmed of this quote from “The Egg Variant”:

“The first version of the myth has the entity arising from the waters after the interaction as a mound of dirt, the Milky Way, which was deified as Hathor”. (That is: Hathor represents the southern hemisphere of the Milky Way contours, also called “the Underworld” because of its appearance on the southern Earth hemisphere as we also say about Australia, located “down under.

- If Emesh and Enten is a true Sumerian creation myth, these deities shall be connected to the formation time and stage before the solar system was created and therefore they cannot be directly connected to our solar system and the seasons of “winter and summer”. When said this, any creation deity of course has a causing influence on all living and vibrating things on Earth and therefore they can be mentioned as deities of fertility, agriculture and abundance of everything.

Almost any Creation Myth begins with nothing physical created, and only after a while, our solar system was created. Therefore, when reading of Creation Myths, it is very important to connect the actual story to the actual stage of creation, and of course also connect the right celestial object or creational movement and to stay put to these primeval principles. (But of course this is impossible to do if not having any ideas of the major role played of the Milky Way in the Stories of Creation and its involved primeval deities.

Reply to "Cruciforms/Gods on Crosses" - http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3014&start=15


AD: The “stick man” is depicted on many Scandinavian Rock Carving locations and most scholars also describe this line as “a sword with a sword sheath” where the slanting line is opposite the Neolithic image.

The big question is of course: What cosmic and mythological telling does this image really depict and describe?

1) Is it the “solar wheel” at all?
2) How can a man physically be connected with the “solar wheel”?
3) What does the asterisk then symbolize?

I´m sure that the “Neolithic Man and Wheel” above has nothing to do with a “solar wheel” as mentioned by numerous scholars. This interpretation is an old uncritical heritage that origin from the lack of natural observations of the seemingly revolving night sky where stars “asterisks” and heavenly figures of star constellations and of the Milky Way contour (the stick man) that revolve (the four spoked wheel) around the Earth celestial pole.

The following images of rock carvings; celestial maps and the Egyptian image, clearly illustrate that the “stick man” has nothing to do with the sun and a “solar wheel”.


This is the most simple way of symbolozing the Milky Way contours on the northern hemisphere.

When comparing these 2 figures and all the other images below, one can immediately catch the similarities.

More images to follow

2 Celestial maps showing the malish figure of the northern hemisphere Milky Way.

This Swedish rock carving illustrate a stationary and revolving man as on the celestial images.

More images to come.

This Swedish rock carving illustrate a stationary and revolving man as on the celestial images.

4 human-like revolving figures attached to the circle of the celestial pole

The Milky Way couple that seemingly both revolve on each night sky hemispheres. On the male figure, the socalled "slanting lined spear" is more like a tale on the clearly naked man. In spite of this nakedness this "tale" is interpreted as a "a man wearing a sword" by scholars. In fact, this is just what one can observe in the night sky if having an average force of eyesight.

More images to follow

The Milky Way couple are imagined by people all over the world representing the first deities - and humans.

This rock carving rubbing show the most details of the northern Milky Way contours.

Notice the headdress and the ankh on the Sweedish and the Egyptian image.

If Carfully compared and connected to the mythical telling of the superior male deity revolving around the Earth celestial pole on the night sky, it is very obvious that "the stick man" and the "sun wheel" all deals with the myths of the Milky Way; with the revolving circle of the stars; constellations; the Milky Way figure and with the four cardinal solar system directions

In his discussion about the solar chi-rho symbol that eventually came to represent Jesus Christ, resembling a man on a cross, Moeller (817) includes an image from a "neolithic passage-grave in Denmark":

Walter O. Moeller states that: “But in this case the deity cannot be the Christ but must be instead Odin-Wotan who hanged himself on a tree for nine days and nine nights with a spear in his side as a sacrifice to himself”.

AD: The “stick man deity” can indeed be both Christ and Odin, but only if they both represent the revolving Milky Way deity and the mythologically connected Sacred Tree of Life. (Also the Norse deity Balder can be included in a similar telling)

Besides this, the revolving Milky Way figure also represents the “Dying and rising” myth as this revolving Milky Way figure can be observed as standing; (resurrected); flying (ascending to the heavens); diving (descending towards the Underworld) and laying dead and then again standing, as several positions in the revolving motion around the celestial pole.

Your "interpretations" are as bad as the interpretations on that "Ancient Aliens" show on the History ch. attempting to claim all the ancient gods were aliens, except you try a revisionist approach to claim that all myths are only about the Milky Way while attempting to rigidly deny those already very well established and confirmed to be solar &/or lunar myths. We appreciate milky way myths but what you're doing is a complete divorce from reality and this has been explained to you several times now.

Your obsession with the milky way clouds your judgement with everything you do and that's why your website is such a hack job. It's worse than just wrong, it's embarrassing to those who actually study these subjects. You cause more problems than anything else, there's so many sloppy and egregious errors on your website that nobody has the necessary time to correct all the errors so, Acharya is certainly not going to waste any time on you.

It seems you've learned nothing from Tat and others throughout this thread and made no necessary adjustments or corrections on your website. You may be officially unhelpable and that's why you need to keep your crap in your thread right here.

Maybe Tat will have the necessary patience to explain it all to you again but, I just don't.

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2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube

I have just taken the time to read through the five pages of this thread. Native presents an intriguing mix of sense and nonsense, helping to illustrate why sensible people are so skeptical of astrotheology. Where Native really fails is in his refusal to change his opinions when his mistakes are pointed out. That is the mark of a crackpot.

Native's comment quoted above is from Dec 05, 2011, and falsely claims some relation to arguments I have presented. I am at pains to respect mainstream science. Native has tried to use my comments as part of his flagrantly unscientific imagination.

Native notes that the earth is closest to the sun around 4 January each year, at perihelion. But the earth is closest to the galactic centre about 21 June, opposite the date when the sun crosses the Milky Way at the December solstice. So the claim that Native asserts as 'logical' is nothing of the sort, it is just wrong. And the perihelion date is not fixed but slowly changes, about one degree of arc per lifetime, mainly due to precession.

The earth moves faster at perihelion due to the laws of elliptical motion discovered by Kepler, which led to Newton's theory of gravity, and which have nothing to do with the galaxy as a supposed driver of terrestrial movement. Native's comments quoted here about logic, momentum, orbit, seasons and the galaxy are ridiculous, bearing no relation to any scientific observation and readily refuted by simple facts.

There is a lot more Milky Way mythology than is often recognised. I have discussed this elsewhere in terms of how the observable band of the galaxy was seen by the ancients as a symbol of unchanging eternal stability and identity, for example in Plato. So I have some sympathy for Native's interest in the Milky Way, but none for his manifest errors about it.

Science should be our bedrock for interpretation of actual texts. Making false unscientific assertions is the easiest way to destroy any credibility, as FTL and Tat have patiently explained in this thread, which stands as an interesting monument to how wrong premises produce massive errors.

Thanks for the clarifications, Robert.

This discussion inspired me in creating this year's 2013 Astrotheology Calendar, which focuses on the Milky Way. This calendar has more text on its theme than the previous years, except for 2010. I have included those two Milky Way hemispheres you provided and have cited you and your website in the new calendar - so congrats!

You are correct that there is much to this subject, and if "Native" had focused with a sniper rifle rather than spraying a shotgun, he would have been welcome to discuss it. The fact is that one needs to discern carefully what the ancients themselves were imparting, rather than constantly injecting one's own flights of fancy into the subject. Creative thought is important in being able to connect the dots, but one must restrain oneself from going overboard into crackpot status.

The Milky Way and Lucifer

The Milky Way mythology is extremely important for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that these myths cannot be said to revolve around a "real person" who was made into a fairytale via apotheosis or evemerism. The Milky Way cannot be said to have ever walked the earth; hence, we are quite certain that these myths revolve around a celestial landmark/phenomenon, not a real person. And from there, we can proceed to unravel myths about other celestial landmarks, such as the sun, which is featured in Milky Way myths.

For example, in the story of Cygnus the swan, the "man" who eventually becomes the constellation seeks his lover Phaethon, son of Apollo, who rides his father's chariot to the sun, whereupon he is prevented from burning himself up by Zeus throwing a thunderbolt. At this point, the chariot stopping short catapults the son of the sun across the sky, spreading sparks as he descends, forming the Milky Way. Cygnus the swan's neck descends to look for him. It is clear that these tales were created as mnemonic devices to help people remember the positions and interrelationships of stars and constellations. It is also clear that many of these myths have made it into the Bible, such as this one appearing in the story of Lucifer falling from heaven.

As I write in the 2013 Astrotheology Calendar (5):


Thus, Lucifer is not a "real person" who has been fighting cosmically the Jewish messiah Jesus. His name meaning "light-bearer," Lucifer is a remake of Eosphoros/Phaethon, son of Apollo and the planet Venus. Ignoring this sort of factually demonstrable correlation will prevent one from unraveling the mysteries of the Bible, and one who does so cannot be considered an "expert" in biblical studies.

In any event, there is much more of the same fascinating information in my calendar, which should be available shortly.



In the above image, we see the Egyptian goddess Nut, whose name means "sky" (whence the French nuit and English "night?"), here symbolizing also the Milky Way stretching protectively across the celestial expanse. Through the course of the day, the sun appears to go into Nut's mouth and come out between her legs. Hence, she was said to give birth to it. Again, another brilliant and colorful mnemonic device to transmit information over the ages - see how this myth has endured in its meaning!

To ignore all these fascinating and often highly scientific observations of the ancients is egregious and insulting to our shared common human heritage. Without these scientific observations, transmitted in story and stone, we would scarcely have made it out of the Stone Age. Our ancestors are to be respected for their intelligence and creativity.

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Why suffer from Egyptoparallelophobia, when you can read Christ in Egypt? Try it - you'll like it: