Freethought Nation

On a separate note here Nick, I was just watching "The Naked Truth" with J. Maxwell going over the biblical references to the changing of the "Ages".

There was a guy who went by "Mr. Bridger" from England who used to post here a while ago. He seemed pretty interested in astrotheology and turned me onto the work of Manly P. Hall. We had been going over the issue of Abraham as being a reference back to "Brahma". One thing that we never got around to discussing is that "Abraham" comes before Moses who comes before Jesus who tells his disciples to follow the Man bearing a pitcher of water.

Now in Zeitgeist and The Naked Truth, they go over how Moses to Jesus represents the age of the Ram moving along the procession of the equinoxes to the Age of Pisces the Fish. They also show how in luke Jesus informs his twelve disciples, the 12 signs of the zodiac, to follow Aquarius after the last passover in the age of Pisces. In other words, when the Sun makes it's last pass during the Age of Pisces the 12 signs are to follow the Sun into the new age of Aquarius.

What they don't talk about in these films is how "Abraham" represents the Hindu God "Brahma". We have "Brahma Bulls" grazing around in the pastures here in the US and abroad of course. Acharya talks about this issue of Abraham being a rendition of "Brahma" in her books and old Mr. Bridger left me a very informative link about the issue one time as well:

"The Persians also claim Ibrahim, i.e. Abraham, for their founder, as well as the Jews. Thus we see that according to all ancient history the Persians, the Jews, and the Arabians are descendants of Abraham.(p.85) ...We are told that Terah, the father of Abraham, originally came from an Eastern country called Ur, of the Chaldees or Culdees, to dwell in a district called Mesopotamia. Some time after he had dwelt there, Abraham, or Abram, or "Brahma", and his wife Sara or Sarai, or "Sara-iswati", left their father's family and came into Canaan. The identity of Abraham and Sara with "Brahma" and "Saraiswati" was first pointed out by the Jesuit missionaries." (Vol. I; p. 387.)

A) http://www.viewzone.com/abraham.html

B) http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Brahma ... eknown.com

So it would appear that the age of the Bull (Abraham), turns into the Age of the Ram (Moses) which then turns into the Age of the Fish (Jesus) who openly speaks about the coming of the Age of Aquarius in the future as the CYCLE of the procession continues.

While considering Aquarius in it's various aspects, Mriana had once mentioned how John the baptist serves a roll as representing the sign of "Aquarius" in edition to the other roles he's serving in the myth. She post this a while back in some unrelated topic around here.

That got me thinking that during the procession of the equinoxes the signs of the zodiac are running in 'reverse' in comparison to the normal yearly cycle.

So Pisces comes BEFORE Aquarius during the procession of the equinoxes. but during the regular yearly cycle Aquarius would come BEFORE Pisces. It's just an issue of the yearly zodiac running clockwise and the processional Zodiac running counterclockwise.

Hmmm, that seems to suggest that during the procession of the equinoxes Pisces (Jesus) comes BEFORE Aquarius (John the baptist), but during the yearly cycle Aquarius (John the baptist) comes BEFORE Jesus.

So Jesus comes both BEFORE and AFTER John the baptist according to the astrotheology of the story. Isn't that what John is going on about in the first chapter?

1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, He (Pisces) who comes AFTER ME (Aquarius) has surpassed me because he (Pisces) was BEFORE ME (Aquarius)."

Pisces comes both before and after Aquarius according to a clockwise zodiac cycle and a counterclockwise zodiac cycle co-existing as one.

This is all comes off as pretty darn astrotheological.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

Well, pretty much all the Journey of the Hero type myths, monomyths, have life-purgation-rebirth as central symbols. Purgation can mean death for some, for others not.

The central aspect of the myth is choice. The Hero has a choice. He can either face the inner or outer demon or he can not bother. This is the area where astrotheology becomes lost. Thus, in a stack of myths, many of which have some roots in solar worship we see this addition of the human free will factor. So, to me, in considering Christianity in its original mystical perspective, one sees ancient myths restructured to promote this notion of liberation arising from correct choice. This is the difference, and it is a massive one, from the solar mythoi that preceeded it. No longer is it necessary to simply follow a ritual and trust that all will be well. Christian myths require the individual to make vital choices that will decide whether he or she is liberated.

The main current of Gnosticism holds that we are all fallen into a lower world and it is only through correct choice, in frequently very emotive situations, that we can return to our source. It is no longer a matter of simply following a ritual and trusting all will be well.

Nick

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"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

If you cannot experience it then it is a concept. If it is the source of existence then it does not exist. This to me is simple logic.

Cohen is using concepts to try and articulate his experience, as a teaching. He needs concepts to do this.

As you clearly don't believe me when I say that the Ground of Being does not exist, I suggest you write to Andrew himself and ask him. He used to have a place on England's Lane in Belsize Park a few years ago. Don't know if he's still there but he's accessible anyway by email. He runs this mag, I think it's called What Is Enlightenment. I'm more mates with Tony Parsons myself.

Nick

_________________
"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

Hi Tat,

Personally, I've certainly heard the Abraham/Brahman notion in Qabalah. The idea of the precession of the equinoxes I've heard other places for sure also. I'm sure there are aspects to the Moses/Jesus story which do represent the changeover from Aries to Pisces. However, my point is that these are not really the meat of the story, they are more the setting or the background not the dominant storyline. This is well noted in Gnostic myths.

You can say that Jesus is a messiah for the Piscean era and leave it at that, but then you are not looking at what creates the tug in people. The notion of astrotheological determinism was left behind in the Christian era. It's became all about free will and how to use your choice to liberate yourself. This is the constant, underlying mystical motif that runs through the New Testament.

BTW, with reference to the zodiacal signs, it's worth remembering of course that they do not necessarily refer to constellations of stars.

Nick

_________________
"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

Shame he didn't title it Why Christianity Must Die and Be Reborn! I looked him up on wikipedia. Didn't seem very Gnostic to me, more a reformer. I'm sure he's a nice chap, but we were debating what the mystical roots of Christianity were 2,000 odd years ago, not what a latter-day Martin Luther wants to do with it nowadays.

I don't really know why you change the subject like this, Mriana. If we're discussing the roots of mystical Christianity and to what degree astrotheology likely played an influence, why do you start talking about something almost entirely different?

Nick

_________________
"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

I've never been so insulted in all my life! Well, apart from the time an American woman asked me if I was Australian.

Have managed to blag some internet access while my gracious host heads out to to the liquor store to stock up on black label Smirnoff and Doritos. I will be here for the next half hour or so to catch up on what's been going on.

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“It is discouraging how many people are shocked by honesty and how few by deceit. ”

Hey Bridger,

By old I mean long time no see.

Here we are in a very lengthy discussion about whether or not astrotheology plays a vital role in religious mythology and the leading M.P Hall expert is out of the game.

From everything I've taken in from Hall so far it seems that astrotheology is both a way of understanding the heavens and a spiritual teaching all wrapped up into one single presentation that founds all religion. I've never seen this issue as being one of "choose astrotheology or spirituality". According M.P hall It's merely one interconnected frame work used by the ancients to organize society and live a given life.

Am I off here or what?

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

Nick, I'll try and contact Andrew Cohen on this one. I'm interested in how he sees this issue.

But I'm also interested in what you think does exist, if you think that anything exists at all.

Could you state your position of this so that it doesn't seem so vague?

What exists?

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

You could probably knock up a bit of a case that astrotheology is the basis of ritual, but as soon as free will and individuality are involved determinist philosophies aren't much use. If all one had to do was follow a ritual or belief system we would all have been living in paradise years ago.

Of course, the original Mr Bridger likely wouldn't have had much time for free will and individuality!

Nick

_________________
"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

As far as I'm concerned if you experience it, it exists. The Ground of Being is a concept. The concept exists but the "thing" it refers to does not. If it did exist then the question of what gave birth to it would arise.

One may create a notion of a self-creating source inseparable from form, but this is conceptual again.

I'm non-dualist, which means I'm actually pretty dualistic. If you understand this statement then you understand much.

Nick

_________________
"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

I'll let you off, then

Spot on with your observations. What we're dealing with here is a form of intellectual alchemy, the combining of the esoteric and the exoteric, in the same way that philosophical systems such as Buddhism encourage practitioner to unite non-being and being. The works of Acharya, Hall and others provide ample proof that the world's various religions are merely cultural interpretations of the same natural phenomena, primarily the cyclical nature of the heavens and our relation to these processes.

It's all quite simple: to develop an understanding of the universe, we must develop a universal understanding, recognising both the permanent (the unchanging principles of astronomy and mathematics, for example) and the impermanent (the names that the rising and falling cultures throughout history give to these principles). The more mystical sects of every religion recognise this necessity and we would do well to absorb their knowledge without recourse to culturally-specific preferences. The final unity is achieved by realising that the divisions between the physical and non-physical worlds only exist in the human mind.

"Suppose, Subhuti, a man had an enormous body, like Sumeru, the king of mountains. Would the sense of personal existence he had also be enormous?"

"Yes, indeed, Buddha," Subhuti answered. "His sense of personal existence would be enormous. But the Tathagata has taught that personal existence is no-existence, for it is in fact neither existence nor non-existence. So it is called 'personal existence'."

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“It is discouraging how many people are shocked by honesty and how few by deceit. ”

Hi Mr Bridger,

I think a more western interpretation of this would be that Buddhism regards the human ego - the personal sense of selfhood - as illusory, in that it is very largely conceptual. Buddhism clearly regards ego-negation as a pathway to liberation. Some Buddhists even chant "I am nothing" for hours on end.

However, I would point out that the Western mystical pathway that emerged with Christianity is not ego-negating in this way. It is more concerned with cleansing the ego of imperfections that arise through lack of self-awareness. Thus mystical Christianity is heavily based around transmuting the ego. Jesus is an envoy, sent by a deeper aspect of being, to communicate with the ego.

If one is familiar with the Hymn of the Pearl, a Gnostic classic found in the Acts of Thomas, one may recall that the Son, having fallen from grace and become lost in the Inn of Forgetfulness, receives a letter from his parents reminding him of who he truly is and what his mission is. Awoken by this message, the Son completes his mission and returns to the divine realm.

In other tales, the traveller, finding himself in a wasteland, must use all the facilities of the ego, especially his experience of free will, to extricate himself and retrieve his divinity.

Thus, I am saying, the determinist spiritual philosophy that arises from astrotheology has only a lesser role in mystical Christianity. The correct use of free will is the what the text is trying to assert as the means to self-transformation.

Nick

_________________
"So the ancients considered the sun as the principle symbol of deity. No ancient person of wisdom or insight ever thought of the sun as that being, but rather the mirror of it." - Manly P. Hall

"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." - Matthew 15

I agree with on the Western interpretation of the ego and whatnot. It would seem to have something to do with binary mode of thought encouraged in the West by mainstream religion, which has then gone on to influence almost every aspect of our culture on a subliminal level. My money's on the interpretation that can be found in Qaballah, Sufism, Gnosticism etc, which encourage a more trinary mode of thought, where instead of merely being presented with the dualistic concepts of good/evil or creation/destruction, we can instead learn about creation/destruction/reconstruction.

The Western mystical pathway within Christianity would seem to be a continuation of the philosophy of the Mystery Schools that played their part in the establishment of the other major religions, all of which deal with this triune concept on one level or another. The Hymn of the Pearl is a perfect example of this idea, with the son(neutral) being extricated from the triune setup of mother(positive) and father (negative), leaving only the dualism of his mum and dad. Similarly, the story can be a metaphor for the history of our understanding, with one parent representing astrotheology/astronomy, the other representing particular religions and the son uniting them.

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“It is discouraging how many people are shocked by honesty and how few by deceit. ”

I never said Bishop Spong was a gnostic. However, he does talk about the roots of Xianity over 2000 years ago. Harpur goes into it more deeply with his Pagan Christ book. In all honesty that was not changing the subject, it's right on target. Even Bob Price has more knowledge about this subject in his lateral interpositus nucleus, than you'll ever have in your whole cerebellum and your cerebral cortex put together. Same with Bishop Spong and Harpur. And yes, Acharya is right up there too IMHO.

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Mriana

Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man. ~ Gandhi

Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison

It looks like we have a couple Englishman laying down some serious shite now.

Dam, you guys should probably meet up at the local pub sometime.

Hell, you all should get together with Vega. That would be quite the blowout with the three of you all together.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?