Freethought Nation

The Jesus Challenge

We hear about the Zeitgeist Challenge from time to time from folks asking why we haven't tried to collect the money.

Well, first of all, they only offered $100 at first & then eventually $250 - which really isn't enough money to motivate anyone to take the time for it especially when one does not trust that these Christian apologists will pay up or admit defeat. They don't know Acharya's work or they'd realize that there "challenge" was met in Acharya's work long before Zeitgeist part 1 ever came out.

If Christians are so confident why don't they get all the churches from around the world involved by chipping-in to the jackpot - at least $10,000 or $100,000 or why not a million?

Christians don't do this because they can't match their own demands for proof - Christians can't meet the 'burden of proof' requirements for the supernatural claims throughout the bible, nor can they provide any valid primary source evidence for even a historical Jesus, let alone the biblical Jesus who was the son of god who did and said all of those things the bible claims. In other words, notice also how apologists make irrational demands for proof of other people's faith, but for their own they require little to none. You can't get more hypocritical than that - Christians couldn't meet a Jesus Challenge if their life depended on it.

Second, we're too busy doing far more greater things right now like, Acharya putting the finishing touches to Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection - this book is far more important to us than some apologist challenge from some biased Christians who've never studied Acharya's work.

But this thread will be geared towards a Jesus Challenge - something even the earliest Christians were never able to meet. 2,000 years later, Christians are in the same position today. It appears that nothing has changed.

Here are some questions that must be answered:

* Why don't we have the original Gospels in their original language written by the hand of actual eye witnesses of Jesus with the correct authorship and dates on them?

* Why were the Gospels originally written in Greek when Jesus supposedly spoke Aramaic?

* Why do Christians uphold the King James Version of the bible as the inerrant word of God when it contains literally thousands of errors?

* How many Christians can read the bible in its original languages i.e. Hebrew and Greek?

* The Gospels as we have them today did not enter the historical or literary records until toward the end of the second century around 180CE - WHY? Prior to that the Gospels were anonymous. That's 150 years after the supposed death of Jesus!!! How can this be if they're suppose to be written by eye witnesses?

* The canonical Gospels are not considered reliable accounts of history by biblical scholars - WHY?

* The epistles of Paul were written long after Jesus supposedly lived and resurrected from the dead - why do they lack any facts about Jesus' life?

* Why didn't Jesus/God leave behind valid, convincing evidence to alleviate Christians from persecution and ridicule and to convince the rest of the world of his existence?

* Why didn't anyone ever describe what Jesus looked like?

* If Jesus was a "carpenter" why don't we have anything created by his hand?

* Why isn't there any artwork, writings or carvings by the hand of Jesus or anything to demonstrate a historical Jesus?

* Where are the court documents for the trials & crucifixion of Jesus proving a historical Jesus?

* Why doesn't the 10 commandments unmistakably forbid war, tyranny, taking over other people’s countries, slavery, exploitation of workers, cruelty to children, wife-beating, stoning, treating women--or anyone--as chattel or inferior beings, government corruption?

* There are over 20 passages in the bible claiming that Jesus was famed far & wide: Mt 4:23-25, 5:1, 8:1, 8:18, 9:8, 9:31, 9:33, 9:36, 11:7, 12:15, 13:2, 14:1, 14:13, 14:22, 15:30, 19:2, 21:9, 26:55; Mk 1:28, 10:1; Lk 4:14, 4:37, 5:15, 14:25 - Why didn't any contemporary historians write anything about Jesus?

* Why do Christians hold-up the writings of Josephus (37-100 CE), Pliny the Younger (62-113 CE), Tacitus (c. 56-120 CE), Suetonius (c. 69-c. 122 CE), as the very best so-called "evidence" for Jesus when even *IF* we consider their writings authentic they are far too late to be considered eye witnesses as they were all born after Jesus' supposed death?

* If Jesus lived and the bible is true then why the need for Christians destroy all the Pagan temples, writings, history and kill the Pagan Priests?

* If Christianity is the one true faith then, why isn't the world convinced?

* The cross is the most important symbol to Christians representing eternal life - how is that any kind of a new divine revelation when the cross/ankh existed in ancient Egypt symbolizing eternal life?

* The primary passage for the Rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Christians are gleefully awaiting Jesus' 2nd coming & rapture etc - WHY, when Jesus said "...There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Matthew 16:28 KJV)? Or in Matthew 24:34 Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Jesus is implying that he would return within the lifetime of his contemporaries, and indeed the Apostles expected Jesus to return before the passing of their generation. Isn't that a failed prophecy? If not, then why did Jesus lead them to believe he would return before their own death? Shouldn't he have said something?

For more info about the rapture in the bibles original language enjoy this thread - http://forums.truthbeknown.com/viewtopi ... 43&start=0

* Why should anyone accept the biblical story of Jesus as historical fact when 1.) There's no valid scientific evidence supporting it and 2.) We have similar concepts via Pagan religions long prior to Christianity.

For more great questions concerning the Jesus Challenge read the book - Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ - VIDEO

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2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube

I have to disagree with this one -- if you read it in context, I feel that the Jesus character is definitely talking about a future generation.

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http://brentoneccles.com

Yep, most people do - those who never check it in its original language.

Acharya has recently done just that in this thread - http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/vie ... 601#p13601

Here's just one quote from Acharya from that thread on this issue:

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2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube

Here's another response from Acharya in that same thread:

http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/vie ... 603#p13603

_________________
2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube

The Jesus Challenge and the Cult of Christian Apologetics

Thank you for doing this much-needed "exercise," FTL.

I want to emphasize the following point regarding the Jesus Challenge:

** Where are the primary sources proving that the canonical gospels as we have them were in existence at the end of the first century?

It's simple: Prove these canonical gospels as we have them existed by the end of the FIRST century. Please produce the autographs of the gospels themselves written by the very hands of the evangelists. These texts must contain the name of the books, such as "The Gospel According to Matthew, etc."

We will also accept as evidence any primary source of verbatim quotes in the historical record. These primary sources, such as the patristic writings, must be originals or be certified by a third party of the time as EXACT copies of what the Church fathers wrote. The patristic writings with the verbatim quotes from the canonical gospels must also contain the exact names of those gospels as we have them. (We are aware of Justin Martyr's discussion of "Memoirs," but these are NOT verbatim quotes, and they do not reflect the existence of the canonical gospels as we have them by the end of the first century.)

If this challenge is not met, there is no evidence for the existence of the canonical gospels as we have them before the end of the second century. And the exalted Christian "experts" thrown around here are believing in their faith without ANY serious, scientific primary-source evidence, while they nonetheless go around denigrating everyone else's religion and making irrational and unreasonable demands for proof for those faiths.

Speaking of whom, the Yamauchi/Licona/Strobel/Holding cult of Christian apologetics ("CCA") has been demonstrated repeatedly to present false, irrational, unreasonable and unscientific contentions concerning not only its own cult but also the faiths and religions of others, including and especially the Egyptian religion. (Jonathan Z. Smith may not be a confessed Christian, but he is unquestionably a ringleader in this cult, with his poorly written and erroneous apologies.)

The Egyptian religion was followed for thousands of years by hundreds of millions of people. Yet in presenting its false claims about this exalted religion, this cult does its typical thing: Deny, dismiss and omit outside of the cult. A wave of the hand, however, will not suffice to destroy the legacy of Egypt, as Christians discovered long ago as well, when they used these same tactics and more - such as VIOLENT DESTRUCTION of temples, books and other artifacts, while murdering Pagan priests.

When faced with these various facts, the members of this cult snap to their brainwashing and respond with the same erroneous and mendacious contentions that have already been refuted.

If it were possible to libel an ideology, these cult members are clearly guilty of libeling the Osirian religion, as they completely misrepresent it in order to present their own cult in a more favorable light.

The cult tactics usually include smearing the individuals who wish to study these ancient religions and faiths, while attempting to foist their own unfounded and unscientific cultic beliefs on others. These beliefs include that there is an invisible Jewish man floating around omnipresently in the sky who "loves" you but who is in charge of everything and will throw you into eternal hell if you don't submit to and obey him (and his cult members). While presenting these patently absurd beliefs, the cult members insist that the gods of other cultures - many of whom share very similar attributes with Jesus - are false. In other words, while there IS an invisible Jewish man named Jesus floating around in the sky, there is NOT an invisible Greek man named Hercules floating around in the sky, as ancient Greeks believed. So, this cult's belief system includes extreme prejudice and bigotry against other cultures - and they truly want you to carry around that extreme prejudice and bigotry, not only towards all other cultures, religions and cults but also against individuals - living, breathing human beings - simply because they will not believe in the cult's absurd claims.

Also, do not succumb to their distractions in dunning you with irrational, unreasonable and unscientific requests - these are typical cult tactics. They will confuse you to the point where they can suck you in, to make you believe all sorts of unfounded nonsense, such as their utterly false and mendacious contentions regarding other people's religions and faiths, e.g., Egyptian religion. With millions of members, this cult goes around trying to BORG others. Don't fall for it - here you have all the tools to prevent being sucked in by this cult of Christian apologetics and its false claims.

The cult member who has been posting here recently is trying to get recruits, pure and simple. This fact is easily demonstrated by his use of the typical cult tactics: Dismiss, deny and omit.

We have allowed this cult member to have his say, but rest assured that we will not allow an invasion of members from this cult trying to recruit others into their sociopathology.

For more information on what cults are and how they operate, see my article:

What is a Cult?

And thanks for the clear demonstration of this stubborn and deleterious cultishness. Much appreciated.

It should also be pointed out that the Zeitgeist Challenge crew are members of the same CULT as discussed above. The same irrational claims and demands. The way the ZG Challenge is worded, it is impossible to win, because they simply want an ancient encyclopedia handed to them in ENGLISH, with the imprimatur of God on it, showing that the creators of Christianity took an already formed story and merely scratched out the name "Horus" or some other and substituted the name "Jesus." Obviously, no such document exists, and the Challenge consists of other such straw men and red herrings, along with contentions I have already addressed repeatedly in my books, articles, videos and elsewhere.

If you look closely at the behavior of the ZG Challenge CULT, you will see the same cult tactics: Dismiss, deny and omit.

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Why suffer from Egyptoparallelophobia, when you can read Christ in Egypt? Try it - you'll like it:

Some of this link may be slightly outdated, for example, the last bullet here, the fragment thought to be the Gospel of John is known as P52 or the Rylands fragment which is most likely dated to 170CE =/- 25 years. The Jesus Police just need to read Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ to catch-up. There's plenty more so check it out - http://www.jesuspolice.com/common_error.php?id=19

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2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube

The primary sources we have about Christ, is the New Testament. We don't even have to assume inspiration. These are Greek documents coming out of the first century. What you need to do is explain on what basis you reject these documents just because they were later canonized by the Church (added to Scripture). Since you reject they are inspired, then they are by default extra-biblical sources. Why do you reject them?



You are inventing your own historical methodology and criteria. Mythicists utilize too high of a criteria for Christianity, but they have virtually no criteria for their own claims -- such as accepting the pagan-parallel theory, despite the total lack of contemporary eyewitness and primary source data.

We don't have the autographs (originals), probably because God knew people would worship them. But we have very early and accurate copies in Greek. We have over 5,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. The New Testament is the best attested document from antiquity. Nothing even comes close.

Several of the epistles of Paul, like Galatians and 1 Corinthians, are considered genuine Pauline epistles by LIBERAL scholars. So, Paul wrote these epistles and he was a contemporary of Jesus. Paul states in Galatians and 1Cor. that he talked with Peter and James.

Luke was a contemporary as my thread on Acts proves. But do we really need contemporaries? No, we don't. Much of what we know from antiquity comes from sources that post-date the events by hundreds of years. We don't have originals on anything in ancient history.



Koine Greek was the common language. And Greek is more subtle and easier to express theological nuances. Some ancient writers like Papias, Jerome, Irenaeus, Eusebius, and Origen claimed there was an Aramaic Gospel or sayings (logia) of Matthew. But as far as I know there is no evidence for this. And the Gospel took Greece by storm according to divine providence.



The errors you speak of are in grammar or spelling. No doctrine is in question. It's kind of like a scratchy record. The message is still there. "A GENERAL INTRODUCTION TO THE BIBLE," by Geisler and Nix, demonstrate that the Old Testament we have in modern translations, agrees with the most ancient manuscripts by about 97%. The New Testament by about 99%.



Very few. The Christians of the first several centuries spoke and read Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Coptic, Armenian and Syriac.



That is not accurate, and you didn't cite any sources. Here are my sources. First, W. F. Albright is considered to be the world's greatest Bible archaeologist. He stated that there is no evidence to place ANY book in the New Testament after A.D. 80. [see Albright, Recent Discoveries in Bible Lands, p. 136].

Albright shows that the evidence for each book of the New Testament points to the fact that each book was probably written between A.D. 50 - 75. [ see Albright, Toward A More Conservative View, p. 3].

LIBERAL scholar A.T. Robinson argues in his book "Redating the New Testamant, that Matthew was written at 40 or after 60, Mark to 45 to 60, Luke at before 57 to after 60, and John at from before 40 to after 65 [see Robinson, Redating the New Testament].

Of the four Gospels alone there are 19,368 citations from the late first century on. This includes the following:

JUSTIN MARTYR (AD 100-165) 268 citations

IRENAEUS (active in late second cantury) 1038 citations

CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (A.D.155-220) 1017 citations

ORIGEN (A.D. 185-254) 9231 citations

TERTULLIAN (A.D. 160-220) 3822 citations

HIPPOLYTUS (A.D. 236) 734 citations

EUSEBIUS (A.D. 265) 3258 citations

EARLIER:

CLEMENT OF ROME Cited Matthew, John and 1 Corinthians in A.D. 95-97.

IGNATIUS referred to six Pauline Epistles in about A.D. 110.

POLYCARP (disciple of Apostle John) quoted from all four Gospels, Acts, and most of Paul's Epistles in A.D. 110 and 150.

SHEPERED OF HERMES (A.D. 115-140) cited Matthew, Mark, Acts, 1Corinthians, and other books.

DIDACHE (A.D. 120-150) referred to Matthew, Luke, 1Corinthians and other books.

PAPIAS (companion of Polycarp) quoted the Gospel of John.

The earliest undisputed manuscript of a New Testament book is the John Ryland's papyri (P52), dated from 117-138.

Jose O Callalhan, a Spanish Jesuit paleographer, made headlines in 1972 when he identified a manuscript fragment from Qumran as a piece of the Gospel of Mark, from cave 7. He later identified nine fragments. Using accepted methods of papyrology and paleography, the dates are as follows:

Mark 4:28 (7Q6) A.D. 50

Mark 6:48 (7Q15) A.D. ?

Mark 6:52, 53 (7Q5) A.D. 50

Mark 12:17 (7Q7) A.D. 50

Acts 27:38 (7Q6) A.D. 60+

Rom. 55:11, 12 (7Q9) A.D. 70 +

1Tim. 3:16; 4:1-3 (7Q4) A.D. 70+

2Peter 1:15 (7Q10) A.D. 70+

James 1:23, 24 (7Q8) A.D. 70+

If valid. The evidence seems to be pointing this way.

[ SOURCES: White, "O'Callahan's Identifications: Confirmation and It's Consequences, " Westminister Journal 35 (1972); Orchard, "A Fragment of St Mark's Gospel Dating From Before A.D. 50?" Biblical Apostolate 6 (1972)].



It depends on who you talk to. There are two schools of theology: conservative and liberal. Some liberals reject the Gospel's (although they admit the Gospel's do have some history in them) because they pre-assume anti-supernatualism. They assume that God doesn't exist or that Christianity is false. This bias against God colors their interpetations. Most scholars today, however, whether Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant, believe the Gospels are in fact history. But remember the spirit of Antichrist is in the world. His apostles are also at work to destroy the credibility of Christianity.



Not that long after Jesus at all.

1Corinthians, for example, is dated to A.D. 55 (25 years after Jesus' execution).

Again, 1Cor. and Galatians and five others are accepted as Pauline (Paul wrote them) even by liberal scholars.

Paul states in Galatians that he met some of the apostles. 1Cor. 15:3-5 is accepted by all scholars (except, Price) to date from 1-3 years after Jesus' execution.

Everything Paul taught, corroborates the Gospels. For example, Paul taught Christ lived, died, and rose again (1Cor.15). Paul said Jesus was of the tribe of David in Rom.1:3; 2Tim.2:8.

Do they lack facts? Not at all. And you are arguing from silence. Arguments from silence don't prove anything. The epistles were meant to be pastoral epistles and theology. The Gospel's, history.



The evidence is sufficient and good. Those who are meant to believe, will. God doesn't twist people's arms. He can't give 100% proof because then there would be no place for faith. He gave us enough evidence to believe, and to know we don't have a blind faith.



Someone might have. We don't have all the information. I read a number of years ago something by Eusebius where he quoted one, Lucian, who described Jesus' appearance. But I don't know if that is authentic. Perhaps Christ didn't want us to know. Again, arguments from silence don't prove anything.



We have his Orthodox Church -- created by his hands. You are arguing from silence. Arguments from silence don't prove anything.



We have an historical Orthodox Church. This is the greatest evidence of all! He founded this Church. We have his tomb, portions of his cross, the nails, and other relics of apostles. We have thousands of "Christograms" (name of Christ) on early Christian tombs. The modern portrait of Jesus on icons is believed to be based on the imprint he left on a towel --it was given to Thomas, according to tradition.



Another argument from silence. Many thousands of people were executed at that time. But F.F. Bruce said that Tacitus' report of Jesus' execution probably came from an official Roman report.[see Bruce, Christian Origins, p. 23].



There were over 600 civil commandments in the O.T that dealt with that.



Some did. But in Jewish eyes Jesus was branded just another heretic. This was their official position. And he suffered extreme marginality by being crucified. There was no need for anyone to give him much attention. Historians of that day usually wrote about official political or religious leaders, not itinerant Messiah figures walking the hills of Galilee.

It is amazing we have anything on him at all.



The best evidence is the four Gospels, the New Testament, and the Orthodox Church, which Christ founded. The sources you mentioned are very early when we compair them to sources for other historical personages and events. (see my thread "Historical Jesus) where I give several examples. Much of what we know from the ancient world comes from a single source hundreds of years later. Several persons don't even have any sources at all, yet historians accept them.



I think you answered your own question. Because it's true. But Christ does not endorse the killing of anyone.



The world has never been unanimous on anything. Those who are God's children will be saved. Those who are meant to believe, will. Your arguments are from silence.



Granting your argument, these were perhaps divine echo's of a universal truth. God gave signs and indications in history of His coming. The problem with the pagan myths is that they never gave birth. By God's providence He prepared the pagan world in many respects for the idea of Christianity.



That was fulfilled in the next chapter --the transfiguration on the Mount of Olives.



He was talking about the generation that would see these events.



No, that is incorrect. He was talking about the generation that would see the events he described.



Then why do you accept the Pagan religions when according to you there is no valid scientific evidence for them? Nothing in history is provable. But using normal unbiased methods of historical research, there is more scientific, archaeological and manuscript evidence for Jesus, then for almost anyone from the ancient period.



False, sorry. C.S. Lewis was a professor of mythology at Oxford. He said Christ's life doesn't fit the genre of mythology. Christ's life is history. Christ is the fulfillment of the pagan myths that the pagan's were looking for. [see, Lewis, MYTH BECAME FACT]. This is from a highly qualified expert.

CONCLUSION

Most of your arguments commit the logical fallacy of argumentum a silencio (argument from silence). Those kind of arguments don't prove anything. It is an illogical form of argument. And much of your erroneous views are the result of being un-educated on this subject. You also have such a high criteria for Christianity and make too many demands, that, I'm sorry to say, if you applied to your own beliefs about the pagan world, and history in general, the results would be disasterous. We would have to dismiss a great deal of history. Apply your own standards against Christianity to your own pagan-paralell theory, and you will see the truth.

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And every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist [1 John 4:3]

You should read the first two volumes of "THE CHRISTIAN TRADITION" (five volumes), by Jaroslav Pelikan. In addition to his earned doctorate, he had 42 honorary doctorates. He also had the John Kluge Award. That is the Nobel Prize for the Humanities. They don't have a Nobel Prize for the Humanities. The John Kluge Award is the equivolent. He was a brilliant Lutheran Church historian, and converted over to the Orthodox Church in 1999.

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And every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist [1 John 4:3]

Freethink Stated: Some of this link may be slightly outdated, for example, the last bullet here, the fragment thought to be the Gospel of John is known as P52 or the Rylands fragment which is most likely dated to 170CE =/- 25 years.

MY RESPONSE: I missed that. What's your source? As I said in my previous post. P52 dates from 117-138.

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And every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist [1 John 4:3]

It sounds like you have no idea about the great error involved in interpreting these symbolic mythological images literally:

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

Tat, your presupposition is mythology. That's your basic fallacy and why you won't see the truth.

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And every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist [1 John 4:3]

Possibly because you "truth" is baseless - you need to exaggerate facts & evidence or fabricate it whole clothe since it doesn't exist?

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2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube

There's a book called "A GENERAL INTRODUCTION TO THE BIBLE," by Geilser and Nix. It gets into the Bible transmission, authenticity, dating, etc.

Also, read "REDATING THE NEW TESTAMENT," by A.T. Robinson.
Robinson argues for earlier dates that have traditionally been assigned to the New Testament. And he is not a Christian.

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And every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist [1 John 4:3]

And yet they are devoid of primary source evidence to meet the above challenge. I'm fully aware that apologists can twist and manipulate the facts & evidence to suite their own agendas & desires. I'm asking for evidence that can stand up to peer review & scientific scrutiny. Like any other science would demand.

_________________
2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube

There's more to Christianity then the New Testament. This is all Evangelicals and Protestants have because they are outside the Church. They don't have the fullness of the Christian faith. Christ also left us with His CHURCH -- the Orthodox Church and an oral tradition. This Church can trace it's lineage all the way back to Christ and the apostles. We, and we alone, have the correct understanding of the identity of Christ. He is the founder of this Church.

To better understand the natures of Bible, Church and Tradition, read "BIBLE, CHURCH AND TRADITION," by Father Georges Florovsky.

When we talk about tradition (paradosis), we are not talking about dead man-made traditions. Orthodox tradition is authority to correctly know what Christianity is and to speak for it, and the living experience of the Holy Spirit as realized in the saints and the mysteries (sacraments), divine eucharist, etc. Our tradition is living and breathing.

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And every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist [1 John 4:3]