Freethought Nation

I'd have to agree with your summary FTL.

The MP is a good speaking platform for TZGM because PJ has already basically exposed himself as a mythicist to the world. Anything that he's ever involved with from here on out will be viewed as something that has the MP associated with it (especially by religious fundies). To come out to the world and tell everyone that Jesus more than likely didn't exist - among other heroic biblical and non-biblical mythic figures - pretty much lets the cat out of the bag. There's no putting it back in or hiding the fact that it's out! To do so comes off as an act of dishonesty. If TZGM doesn't want to be associated with the MP then they'll just have to remove PJ and the name ZG from the movement. His very involvement with the resource based economy brings his views on current society into the whole thing, at least as far as people watching the progression of all of this are concerned.

If the idea is to get away from the mythicist position in order to proselytize religious fundamentalists (as I've been hearing) then the whole thing seems doomed. The fundies aren't going to forget the claims that were made in ZG part 1 and the Addendum in my opinion. The Venus Project and the resource based economy are a vision of moving beyond the current religious and political paradigms and are openly expressed as such. Trying to recruit Christian types into the movement is so ridiculous of an idea in my opinion that I want nothing to do with it. It's flat out dishonest in my view and a case of people thinking that the end somehow justifies the means - leading people into something that they don't fully understand isn't the best thing to do.

I just think that the stage has already been set and the people who are likely to join the movement are those theists, atheists, pantheists, pagans, agnostics, humanists, and mythicists etc., in the world who are open minded to new ideas and don't have a problem with looking at every one's religions as basically many different ways of arriving at the same ultimate realization. That's where people from diverse ethnic and religious backgrounds can come together and that's exactly what the MP can bring to the table as a branch of comparative mythology and religious study. People all have a common bond in that their religions are astrotheological oriented and addressed to the mysteries of life and existence. It applies across the entire board. People can agree that this underlying mystery factor in existence is the truth about existence and that all paths can be viewed as leading to this underlying truth. Many different gods and god-men can be understood to represent this basic understanding.

Basically, one can feel their own personal connection to the truth of truths through which ever religious tradition they may choose, it really doesn't matter. If atheist, well then that path also leads to the very same underlying mystery of life and existence via science and reason without using the metaphors and allegories of mythology. It's unreasonable to get off thinking that life and existence is anything other than grounded in deep mystery. So atheists are not cut out of this basic spiritual understanding coming from the mythologies. Understanding the solar symbolism of the myths with it's mystical realization purpose can serve to unite people and give them a reason to finally stop promoting exclusionary oriented religious practice. Exclusionary Jews, Christians, and Muslims in no way benefit from the promotion of something like the Venus Project to begin with. I would think that it's up to people who are capable of seeing past all of that bull shit to promote the grand vision of such an advanced global society. The recruitment of fundies seems like a dead street for the cause itself.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

Sorry. I've only had time to read his 'commentary' on Zeitgeist: Addendum and not his comments on the first film, so I can make no comment on that. But the quotes are quite reprehensible.


He works with religious people from time to time, quoting their own scriptures to show how The Venus Project is really their 'spirituality in action'.

Great post FTL.

_________________
http://brentoneccles.com

Hey Brenton, could you post a link or quotation to Jaque Fresco speaking to people about the Venus Project and religion? I'd like to get a feel for how he's dealing with religious issues in order to better understand what's going on.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

_________________
http://brentoneccles.com

Well Brenton, Fresco (especially from 6:00 forward) paints a very definite MP oriented outlook on religion. The Gods are mythological and not literal beings according to Fresco while he's promoting his Venus Project vision for society. There's absolutely no reason to try and distance yourselves away from the MP laid out in the first film when Fresco's every commenatary on religion amounts to a mythicists view of religion. Obviously that's why he and Roxanne loved ZG part 1 when they saw it and decided to contact PJ which led into them combining efforts on the second film and forming TZGM thereafter.

The fundies are not going to come running by the droves to join up with Fresco when he's pointing out that their God ideas are essentially human ideas - the Gods are a reflection of human thinking. Trying to sneak around and proselytize the worlds fundies is very ridiculous in the end. Either they're going to see the light and let go of the literalism or they're not. And Fresco's right, the gods are mythic and they are nothing more than the priesthood writing things down and claiming to the people that these things come directly from a God up in the sky. Yahweh telling the people to storm the city and put every man to the sword but save the virgin girls for the men's own sake, is of course the religious authorities telling the people to do these things, not some mythical sky-daddy! You guys are over your heads immersed in mythicist based reasoning when dealing with religion and the Venus Project. You may allow the freedom of religion in the resource based economy and you might not want to force people into having to accept your mythicist based views on religion - the views of the people leading out this whole movement - but you all are standing behind people who promote mythicist based views on religion and that's simply a case of stating the obvious. Trying to publically pull away at this point in order to gain a wider range of converts can come off as an act of very blatant dishonesty. Just take the high road and stick to the speaking platform that has already been started and put out to the public, that's my advise.

From what I understand the Venus Project won't be considered as an alternative to the current monetary based economy unless the current monetary based economy fails! Only then can the Venus Project come in as a solution to the theoretical failure of the current system. So it doesn't depend on convincing all the fundies anyways. If the monetary system fails they're all screwed! They won't really have much of choice in the matter. If the resource based economy is suggested as a solution then they'll have to accept it because the old system that has made them rich, wealthy, and so very prosperous will no longer be an option on the table. With the new system underway they won't hold dominant positions in society anymore (no hiearchy in the VP) and they won't be able to censor information in the way that they have in the past. I have to wonder what in the hell it matters as to how many religious fundies join the movement right now if an economic collapse is the only thing thats going to instate the VP? It's not like the VP is up for popular vote or something and you have to campaign to all of the worlds fundies and make them see you as harmless in order to get a majority of the people behind voting out the current monetary system. It won't be voted out. The monetary system has to collapse on it's own accord proving itself a complete failure to everyone according to Fresco's commentary on ZG: Addendum. If anything, the movement would have to consist of trying to somehow force the current monetary system into a global collapse therefore opening up the possibility for the VP to come in and replace it, not convince a majority of people into wilfully letting the current monetary system go. Has something changed since the Addendum? Is Fresco now saying that it will require convincing the majority of the world to let go of the monetary system, or is he sticking to what he said previously in the Addendum interviews?

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

By the way, that video is a clip from http://www.futurebydesignthemovie.com/ - buy it before ZDAY because Gazecki has a 'special price' for it.


I agree very much. It's not so much that I advocate 'sneaking around' them. There are two approaches that can be taken, in my mind, though I'm sure you and others could suggest countless more:
1. Come at them 'hard' and very critical of their beliefs. In essence, challenge them very strongly and if the result is positive you'll change their perspective by getting them to strongly bring into question their present point of view.
2. Take the approach of showing them that, regardless of their beliefs we are really all the same and that the direction of The Venus Project is essentially their spiritual values being put into practice and that they would only enhance their spiritual values with 'dutiful action' and be a part of putting them into practice.
We just have to choose what we think would be most appropriate. For example, a gun-loving 'I can rape the environment because Jesus is returning' type is not going to be easily swayed by number 2 but may be receptive in some way or another to number 1.


For the most part, I agree. It doesn't really worry me much, because as I've highlighted elsewhere literalism in all forms is generally in decline in the West (perhaps in the East and elsewhere too, but I haven't checked demographics for those areas) so that little 'issue' is really taking care of itself.


He's generally sticking to that, and we all are, but allow me to clarify what is meant by that. We don't need to force the system into collapse for many reasons. First of all, nearly every nation is using the economically unsustainable system of fractional reserve banking which is a 'matter of time' before collapse - I really suggest reading great books such as Ellen Brown's Web of Debt to understand that problem. But regardless of that, we have the multi-faceted environmental crises which wipes out the monetary issue in leaps and bounds. We are heading toward environmental crises because we lack the intelligent management of resources, and live in an economic system which (though not entirely bad) tends to have a 'rape and run' mentality. In other words, exploit the resources and f**k the problems that will be caused if we don't manage them. This has improved in many industries in recent decades, but it's still inadequate. I suggest reading Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared Diamond - amazing work, award winning, etc,.
The Movement is really about having the public informed about our direction, as well as a base of activists ready to go on various issues and to push the governments of the world to move towards a resource-based economy when our numbers are large enough (or when the problems become too big, whichever comes first).
Personally I think that if we get enough media attention we could get the numbers needed to push for this in a few nations before social conditions decline too much.
But we'll see.

_________________
http://brentoneccles.com

Thanks for the response and break down Brenton. A lot of mythicists have taken the path of #1. PJ certainly came at the world that way originally. #2 is reasonable in my view but I don't see where it involves getting away from the MP because the position itself is aimed at calling attention to the fact that regardless of their beliefs we are really all the same. That's what Acharya puts out there. The Gospel According to Acharya S. lays that out very clearly and she mentions it here and there in her other writings as well. It's all mythology, it's all the same. There's no one special myth above and beyond all others. This isn't about hammering them it's about holding a firm position of equality and not letting them undermine it with their exclusivity beliefs. As long as you guys don't resort to trying to publicly turn your back on the MP and act like you have nothing to do with it then fine. If you do publicly turn your back on us then I would see it as pretty dishonest on the part of the movement.

So there's no activist agenda to your knowledge that involves trying to help the economy crash by simply speeding up the inevitable thereby clearing the way for the VP to take the reigns as quickly as possible.

So the movement is basically aimed at gaining numbers. That's where the need to have Christians on board comes in. I do think that liberal Christian types shouldn't have a problem with the way you've presented #2. It's the fundies that will try and pick you to pieces. But I hope you guys can push through and make it happen whatever the case may be. I'm not a fan of divisive boundary lines. It's becoming outdated in this day and age. I'd like to the entire planet a haven for freedom in the way that the US has been - the whole world as a type of USA which is even more free than the USA is currently! You offer a far better alternative to world unification than the usual NWO type bullshit. The worlds going to unify, there's no where else to go from here. The question is whether it's going to be led by the elite or led by something like the VP where elitism is eradicated off the face of the planet, as Fresco put it. I'm all for eradicating elitism off the face of the planet as far as that goes.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

When I sent an e-mail to Jacque Fresco asking him about his own experiences with religion and for his opinion on the mythicist position, the only response I got was:

That's it? No answer to anything. I'm really disappointed to see that the momentum created by ZG part 1 is becoming all for not - and, in fact, TZM is willing to stand by and allow all the great information in ZG1 be buried once again as it was for the last 2,000 years. I totally understand the decision TZM/Venus Project made to distance themselves from the movies but, omitting religion from all discussion is a complete divorce from reality. At no point in human history has that ever happened, nor will it ever happen. The mythicist position gives TZM/VP an easy out by at least taking a position on religion.

It seems morally wrong to make a movie like ZG1, viewed by over 100 million people worldwide, and then just abandon it after peaking everybody's interests in the subject. There seems to be some moral obligation to at least follow it through with SOMETHING rather than just let all that momentum die out.

The mythicist position is an easy "out" for Peter Joseph, Jacque Fresco and all the members of TZM/VP. The members of TZM/VP should at least be made aware of the new mythicist position so they may decide for themselves. After adopting or endorsing the mythicist position, they can feel like they've accomplished something with the momentum behind ZG1 that would make a real difference in the future regarding religion. It seems like an obvious thing to do, in my opinion, to tie off this loose end and be done with it. Again, taking a position on religion is better than trying with all your might to omit the 10 ton elephant in the room - that's all I'm trying to say.

If I'm completely wrong then, let me know how & why.

_________________
2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube

I hate to be the one to state this but Jacque Fresco is a scientist, an Industrial Designer and a Social Engineer. He apparently has interest in Structural Designing, Mechanical Engineering and Experimentation with Technology. Jacque is not a Theologian, a Scholar on Biblical Studies nor is he an Ancient Historian. Apparently Jacque has very little interest in the field of comparative religion study and the only type of studying he has done that is apparent to me is Religious Psychological Evolution. How people identify what aspects of nature with god's and deities and what type of emotions it conveys with natural disasters. In other words, anthropomorphizing.

I just thought I would very much point this out in case you should know; he is only interested with those things that can be used to advance humanity in a sociological manner. While I agree that studying religion is very important in order to understand history, I believe it must be overemphasized with what Jacque's interests are and are not.

Thanks Voice of Reason, it's pretty obvious Jacque isn't any sort of expert in religion. Nobody ever responded to my questions from:

Jacque really does have an outstanding resume complete with military contracts. He must've made some pretty serious money. I am disappointed that they didn't answer any of my questions.

One would think that Jacque would find a nice home in the mythicist position then.

It's about far more than just understanding the history of religion to us. By understanding the origins and history as explained by Acharya's work it causes a paradigm shift also in our understanding of the future of religion as well. That's why we find it so vitally important. When society realizes the origins of religious concepts stem from natural phenomena and how those concepts evolved over time with differences due to environment, culture and era, we can understand those similarities and differences with a greater understanding. This mythological and astrotheological understanding completely neutralizes the entire us vs. them mentality and renders 'end times' scenarios as obsolete.

That's why this is so important that TZGM/VP take a position on religion. And it would benefit humanity if they adopted &/or endorsed the mythicist position. The idea of losing all the momentum built up in ZG1 essentially maintains the status-quo on religion which will remain to be a disaster as it has been for 2,000 years. We finally have the interest to address the issue at this time and it feels like TZGM is slamming the door on it allowing the material to be buried once again, possibly forever this time. We may never have this opportunity again.

I mean, all Peter Joseph, Jacque Fresco, TZGM/VP need to do is adopt/endorse the mythicist position and be done with. They still continue on doing exactly as they are now - they don't need to discuss religion anymore...they deflect to the mythicist position. It allows for a fantastic conclusion on the issue of ZG1 movie. PJ can feel like something was accomplished, like something finally came from his ZG1 movie that will play an important role in the future regarding religion and how people view religion. I would think that would be an important aspect of TZGM/VP.

Again, it still seems like a type of moral obligation to me too. When you make a movie that captures the interest of around 100 million worldwide, you hold a certain amount of responsibility. I think that responsibility would be answered via the mythicist position.

_________________
2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube

The thing is, I can go see him personally at the VP site in Venus Florida. I've passed it several times already. I'm not sure if it's open to the public for tours or not. I should check and see. I'd like to be able to have a conservation with the man in person some time just to see how he responds to it. The property is right off of 27 west of Lake Okeechobee. If any ZGM members following this thread have info on the property and how one can go about seeing it and speaking with Fresco I'd appreciate a link or something.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

This post should not be seen as any sort of attack, we're just trying to better understand what the hell is going on with the TZGM/VP split and why they're both having such a difficult time with anything related to religion.

This quote might explain why TZGM/VP refuse to have anything to do with the discussion or even mention of religion in any way shape or form:


Why did The Venus Project part ways with The Zeitgeist Movement?


Peter Joseph on The Zeitgeist Movement, Venus Project split - Part 1


Peter Joseph on The Zeitgeist Movement, Venus Project split - Part 2

_________________
2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube

We are deeply disappointed with The Zeitgeist Movement's (TZGM) bizarre disownment of the original ZG1 due to the fact that they believe religion to be "irrelevant" and just "a symptom of society." TZGM believes that the Resource Based Economy (RBE) is the solution to the root of the worlds problems. TZGM fails to understand that religion is far more than just a symptom - it's a significant part of why people in society believe and behave the way that they do. TZGM will never get to the root of the problems they claim they want to address if they continue to omit the overwhelmingly embedded religious beliefs throughout societies worldwide.

Now, think about that - while I think we can all agree that our natural resources are extremely important and should be very carefully managed worldwide, TZGM fails to recognize the importance of nature based religion as synergistic with our natural resources. How could TZGM fail to make such an obvious connection? How could they drop the ball so badly, failing to recognize the ancient veneration and worship of the earth, fire, water, air, plants/crops/food (photosynthesis), the sun, moon, planets, stars, constellations, milky way etc.? Zeitgeist part 1 was all about explaining how Jesus was a SUN GOD!!! The sun has everything to do with most all life on planet earth for Christ's sakes!!! Where would the natural resources be without a sun? TZGM has dropped the ball in epic proportions at a very significant time - they had a wonderful opportunity and chose to toss it away. Until TZGM recognizes this basic fact they will be omitting the giant elephant in the room. TZGM should've kept going on the religious issue same as they have the RBE.

TZGM needed to continue to make the case that most of the worlds religions are rooted in nature in one way or another and that respect for nature and being great stewards of the only planet we have to live on is paramount. TZGM had a wonderful opportunity to continue to break down the walls that divide us via religions and make the case that the common denominator between most religions are rooted in nature. It's so sad how TZGM turned their back on this paradigm shift and enlightenment that is so powerful that it has the potential to neutralize all apocalyptic 'end times' beliefs and make the choice for a better future for everyone, instead of a one-way ticket to mass destruction worldwide.

They should be asking Acharya and the rest of us here for our help in creating a ZG1 part 2, as we are the ones still defending ZG1 6 years later. If they don't want to or are incapable of handling the religious issue, then, they should hand it off to an organization that can and encourage them and their ZGM members to also be apart of it, rather than ignoring it and claiming that "TZGM has nothing to do with religion." By taking that position after creating Zeitgeist part 1, they have let down all of humanity and its future by shooting themselves on the foot by turning their back on an important part of their very own goals. It's bizarre.

"The religion section is the strongest of the whole work"
- Peter Joseph

It has also been a monumental disappointment that TZGM still refuses to share Acharya's mythicist position video with their 500,000 members - just so that they are made aware such a position even exists.

The Mythicist Position | What is Mythicism?


Can I get an amen!?

If you agree with me then, please, contact them and give them the link to this very post - viewtopic.php?p=27934#p27934

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/contact-us

Faith and euphoria should never trump credible evidence that actually exists.

_________________
2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube