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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:34 pm 
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Sort of like Soylent Green? :lol:

Chuck Heston: "Soylent Green is made of people...it's people!"

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:19 am 
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Abortion is a wonderful, beautiful thing, as it rescues a trapped, innocent soul from the horrors of being dragged into the evil material world. Abortions should be free, legal and available to any and all on request. The real monsters are the ones who force beings into existence, the only true sin is procreation.

Hermies


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:41 am 
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That seems consistent with Buddhist enlightenment doctrine from what I can tell. The ultimate goal is to stop reincarnating into this material world isn't it? Then there's the Bodhisattva's which choose to come back willingly into the world after reaching enlightenment in order to joyfully participate in the sorrows of the material world and help the people who are trapped here in this vicious cycle coming back again and again. Dan, you're obviously big on Buddhism and it's influence on Christianity, so what's your take on this?

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:55 pm 
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I believe you could say the ultimate goal of Buddhism is to wake-up (bodhi) in a dream. When this is done one is said to not be reborn. Jesus, like the Buddha before, said that he was awake among those that sleep and he clearly thought that John the Baptist was Elijah reincarnated. Jesus says about him "those born from women", the Buddha uses the same phrase when speaking about beings subject to birth and death. A good number of early church fathers belived in reincarnation, and according to most Christians Jesus reincarnated 3 days after his death, or if we take his word, that he was sleeping in the belly of the earth, Jesus awoke.



Regarding Buddhism and abortion, both the Mahayana and Theravada claim that the abortioner recieves negative karma.

According to NewCather if I went around killing people I would be doing them a great service :cry:


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:43 pm 
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For what it's worth, I thought I'd share this very interesting perspective from a doctor (OB/GYN) who also performs abortions.
Thoughts from an Abortion Doctor

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:53 pm 
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Thanks FTL, that was a nice perspective to hear from.

Dan, I can see how they would say that abortion is bad karma. You don't really transcend by dying alone, one has to progress to a level of transcendence over many incarnations ranging from animal and human. So if the fetus is aborted it's bound to come back as something else again, perhaps even an animal, because if the ground work for transcendence is incomplete one can not transcend. So it really doesn't help in that sense. But it was an interesting consideration to ponder. But at the same time, according to Buddhist doctrine, the fetus that died will return again. It wasn't really the end of anything at all except that one particular incarnation. There will be more, likely many more. And from that perspective it's not really all that big deal to Buddhist's is it? It's one of those contradictory aspects of religion I suppose.

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:02 pm 
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Dear Tat,

I argue, not due to any Buddhist influence, that abortion is wrong for the reasons that I previously gave. I know abortion is wrong because if I happened to walk into a room where one was being preformed, based on the value I place on all stages of life, feel a sense of disgust. At the same time if I happened to walk into a room and a person was snorting coke and eating their own shit and masturbating to animal porn I would just walk away.



Of course I believe you are correct in as much as either there is something about our being that is eternal or not. If we have the eternal within us then abortion is only a material death, if we are damned to oblivion what is the use of anything? You touch on the great paradox of why God or Jesus or Buddha, etc.. have the power to feed the starving people, to rescue would be victims, etc.., but they do not. Both Jesus and Buddha taught that you have to fight karma and that although there may be short-cuts to reach a state of no karma, good medicine is always bitter and that the suffering must be endured! The Buddhist’s have many sayings supporting this and I see this message in the cross, or stake. On certain levels I tend to agree but I do not claim to see how a person's karma leads them to being born in a land with little food (if God even feeds the birds), or how karma could cause a person to get struck by lightening, here I am a skeptic of Jesus and Buddha although in Buddhism we do have fait that is not related to karma such as the Buddha saying that his luck in achieving Buddhahood was like the odds of a one-eyed turtle poking his head through the middle of a ring of sea froth. Although I do not let it obscure my belief, I would like to believe that there are such things as natural negative consequences for those who physically harm others and that those who get killed in earthquakes were all child molesters in a past life, but in truth all I see is a world of tooth and claw where the random chaos of nature seems to be unrelated to individual karma.

-who knows?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:32 pm 
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Quote:
Why Do I Perform Abortions?

I perform abortions because women with unwanted pregnancies are willing to risk just about anything to try to end their pregnancy. I would be the happiest person in the world to never do another abortion again. So why do I do them? Because pregnant women with unwanted pregnancies are willing to risk just about anything, including almost killing themselves, in order to try to end unwanted pregnancies.

I remember reading some statistics comparing abortions in the U.S. and Mexico, before they were legal there. About the same number of abortions were done in each country, just over 1 million abortions a year. In the U.S. about 10 women died as a result of legal abortion. In Mexico, about 10,000 women per year died as a result of illegal abortions. 10,000 women who were mothers, sisters, daughters, wives. Not pre-viable fetuses.

There’s excellent evidence that in countries where women control their reproduction, the families are more prosperous. Funny that, women knowing when it’s a good or a bad time to add a child to their family.

You would never pick out an abortionist in the crowd. We would probably be the last people you would figure. We are the kindest, most compassionate people you would wish to meet. We are, however, very passionate about protecting the lives and reproductive rights of our patients.

Last time I checked, abortion was legal in this country. But I can tell you that the people who oppose abortion have no feelings of any kind for the poor women who have to make the terrible decision to end a pregnancy for whatever reason. They want to end abortion because they love those theoretical innocent children.

Oh, yeah, forgot that we are all born sinners. Maybe they aren’t such great babies after all.

That last poke was obviously aimed at the anti-abortion Christian fundies out there. But the main point is that it wouldn't do a dam bit of good to make abortion illegal in this country. Of course abortion seems gross. But it's necessary in some cases. I'd find it disgusting to walk into a room and see a living tumor being removed to tell you the truth. Like I said, the goal here should be to move towards selective reproduction or something in order to make abortions unnecessary altogether. Making abortion illegal solves nothing in the end. They'll still happen and under far worse circumstances with legal consequences to pay as well adding to our already over populated and privatized prison systems. It's not a well thought out position in my opinion, nor the opinion of those who actually perform abortions either. The solution to the problem is finding a better alternative in my view.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:41 pm 
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Hercules

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Dan,

Hey, I am most certainly not advocating running around killing people! You miss the whole point! If you haven't noticed men are already doing that - alot! Very, very bad!

Allowing the unborn the chance not to experience the horror of human life - this is the blessing I am advocating.

Why is it that so many humans seem so enamored of this pathetic life that they demand that more and more and more be subjected to it, and scream bloody murder at anyone who even faintly suggests that it might not be the best idea? I just don't get it.

BTW, Buddhism is just another politically-motivated self-serving dogmatic crock-o-poop for control of ignorant masses.

HP


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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 3:36 am 
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Dear New Cather,


"Your pain runs deep{as Spok's brother embraces him}"-Star Trek 2 ?

I hope you take the time to read your own posts. You wrote;
"Why is it that so many humans seem so enamored of this pathetic life that they demand that more and more and more be subjected to it, and scream bloody murder at anyone who even faintly suggests that it might not be the best idea? I just don't get it."

I suggested if you believe this that yo should also believe that life may not be the best "idea" for you.

I do not demand that anyone be subject to life, everyone has the right to end thier own lives, like in the fabel of Jesus.

Again I ask you what makes it ok to terminate a fetus and not you? Memories? I would assume that alot of yours are bad?


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 6:56 pm 
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Hercules

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I am doing a fetus a huge favor by not forcing him to come to this hellplane! Humans who force the unborn to come here and endure the horrors of life are the real monsters...

Suicide is a whole 'nother subject. No comment.

HP


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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 11:53 am 
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OK, some simple facts (plural) on abortion. This is long, so here is an outline.

1 Disclaimer
2 Facts about fetuses
3 Answer to some misleading rhetoric
4 How they're actually done
5 The real reasons for its continued legality
6 Answer to the actual question for this topic
7 Answers to those on the Christian Right who would misuse everything said above

1 Disclaimer: I am actually NOT a Christian or a Evolutionist, but a Deist. After seeing Zeitgeist, who can seriously remain a Christian? But also, never having seen living things arise from nonliving matter, there's no reason to have faith in Evolution (and yes, if it requires belief in things you've never seen happen, it's faith)

2 Facts about fetuses
A fetus is made up of cells (also plural lol)
Do y'all know of anything else that is made up of cells that isn't living?

3 Answers to some misleading rhetoric
Women absolutely have the right to control their own bodies (that's why there's contraception), but not anyone else's; this fetus has its own heart, brain and DNA pattern.
A fetus isn't property, that it can be disposed of if inconvenient.
There are no immaculate conceptions, and these "unwanted pregnancies" are the usually the result of alcohol (and forgetting contraception while under the influence.)


4 But in all abortion debates, who tells you what it is, how they're performed? Here's two types.

*Dialation and Evacuation: typically done in the second trimester (which is defined as Week 13 to Week 27, according to the Mayo Clinic website.) Because the fetus now has calcified (hardened) bones, it becomes necessary to use more forceful methods. In a Dialation and Evacuation, the abortionist insters forceps through the cervix, into the uterus. The abortionist then uses the forceps to twist and then snap off the limbs, then to extract the limbs and skull from the woman, piece by piece.

*Dialation and Extraction: sometimes called partial-birth abortion by detractors. Formerly used between 20 weeks and birth. The abortionist pulls the baby's leg, dragging most of his body out of birth canal--though excluding the head. Head outside=born, according to the law. The back of the baby's skull is penetrated by closed scissors. The scissors are then opened to widen the hole. A suction catheter then sucks out the brains.

Nervous system develops around 20-24 weeks (Christian groups say 4 weeks; isolated nerve cells start appearing at 4 weeks, but the fetus most likely doesn't feel anything until week 20.)
In any case, not pretty.

5 The real reasons for its continued legality: Population control, long an exercise of the rich, as well as corporate profits, drive this.
Population control: In ancient Sparta, the ephors would every year proclaim a (basically) "helot hunting season." The ancient Spartans were outnumbered 8 to 1 by the helots and lived in constant fear of rebellion. In the medieval ages, serfs required the Lord's permission to marry and there was a death penalty for adultery, keeping the serfs in line. Early 1800s English factory owners, inspired by Malthus, strove to make the factories unsafe to maim or kill the poor people working in them, as well as striving to repeal the Poor Laws. (Remember in A Christmas Carol when Scrooge refuses to sell his grain to the charity, to "decrease the surplus population?" Charles Dickens' just put in Scrooge's mouth what the kinds of things factory owners of the time were saying.) Today, the Rockefeller-owned Chase Bank gives a great deal of money to the Planned Parenthood Corporation (which gets by report $300 million in federal subsidies). The Rockefellers and other superwealthy old money families have repeatedly complained that the world is overpopulated and have spoken of the need to reduce the population (at least the "serf" population lol). And who gets the abortions? Not the Kennedys or the Gates or the Rockefellers or the Waltons, but the lower-income people. This whole thing, stealthily promoted as "womens' rights" of all things, is a way of waging the class war, for how can the poor outvote the monied interests or overwhelm the police if their numbers are kept low? As for profits, think of this: if the poor are struggling to feed their families, but the industrialists have to pay a livable wage, the cash is flowing OUT of the corporation they work for. If the poor can be persuaded that abortion is the way, than Planned Parenthood makes profits, bringing cash IN to them, and the corporation also avoids paying OUT. No wonder banks like Chase contribute.
It's population control and class warfare, as we can see, especially in promotion of it overseas; the third-world countries that the International Planned Parenthood Federation promotes its work in are known to be extremely male-dominated and abortions are almost as a ruler gender-selective. The idea that gender selective abortions are somehow advancing womens' rights overseas.
Just FYI, I've read some of the things the feminists have said and written, and this is seriously the only thing they're wrong about.

6 Depends whether you like one time butchery or repeated beatings better.

7 Answers to those on the Christian Right who would misuse everything said above: This may be the most important part.

The Christian Bible DOES NOT contain a pro-life God. When God tells the Israelites to kill every man, woman, and child in Canaan, this included unborn children. And coming from a God who punishes to the 3rd and 4th generation, this is not a surprise.
Exodus 22:21 speaks of punishing MONETARILY a man who causes an induced abortion by accidentally hitting a pregnant woman while fighting with another man. Not the death penalty--monetary penalty.
Church fathers and officials who made anti-abortion stands were overstepping their authority by inventing doctrine (which is quite common actually; like Pope Pious IX claiming Papal Infallibility in 1870.)
Quite simply, the Bible is not a pro-life book, or even a moral book. It is a relativistic book (teaching genocide is OK if you're a "chosen people"), that contradicts itself repeatedly (Proverbs 26:4, Proverbs 26:5, no dispute), and is not the inerrant word of God, but rather, it is a 3rd-rate hack-job that needs a proofreader.


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 4:32 pm 
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Hercules

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Living or not, all fetuses should be immediately aborted. In fact, the living is the problem!

HP


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:09 pm 
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George Carlin: Pro Life, Abortion, And The Sanctity Of Life


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:44 am 
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NewCathar wrote:
Abortion is a wonderful, beautiful thing, as it rescues a trapped, innocent soul from the horrors of being dragged into the evil material world. Abortions should be free, legal and available to any and all on request. The real monsters are the ones who force beings into existence, the only true sin is procreation.

Hermies


Your point of view is quite radical but i understand it. When i see that prolife christian lobbies militate against abortion while they fuel the war on terrorism, i am disgusted. The catholic church needs more sheeples in order to extend is power, that's why katholikos(ancient greek) means universal, this is their goal.

Strangely, those who are spreading illuminati theories cannot afford to see the links between them(conspirators) and the catholic church. In the region where i live, there is a catholic church that features one of these illuminati symbols on the altar, the golden glowing pyramid. I tried to speak about that with a pro-catholic conspiracy theorist but he just tried to evade the question.

I recently had a discussion with one of those conspiracy theorist. I asked him why is it that in the early twentieth century(in my region), the priests advised husbands to hit their wives, before or during sex, so they do not enjoy the act(my grandmother has itself raised many disturbing stories about it). He said that it must be Jewish rabbis and that I was wrong, except that there is no synaguogue in my area, only Catholic churches. When he realized that he was wrong, he just stopped replying..... hahahaha.

P.S.: I'm new on the forum and i'm from quebec so i speak french, but i do my best to be understood, google translation tool is such a sh** sometimes.


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