I don't think that this guy has read Christ in Egypt. Maybe Acharya should e-mail him and offering him a copy of her book. I'm sure he will be impressed and maybe change his mind.
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:53 am Posts: 384 Location: near London
This guy is excruciatingly ignorant:
"Horus is not a sun god" "Isis was not a virgin" "Sun and son only sound the same in English" (Sigh) "Massey and 19th century researchers are amateurs" "Horus was cut up into 14 pieces..." Horus???
It gets worse.
Don't waste a book on him. It will spoil his 'personal relationship' with Jesus.
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:17 pm Posts: 2248 Location: Everywhere
Let's see, Forbe's daughter off in Russia is upset because people have come to learn that the Jesus story is a myth and she wants Dr. Daddy to come up with an apologetic rebuttle.
Ultimately what needs to go down is having Acharya and Forbes together in an interview where Forbes can first make his claims and then have to sit there like an idiot when the responses come back at him - and then have to account for his assertions such as Horus cut up into 14 Pieces etc. It would be funny to see this guy try and squirm his way out of it.
_________________ The Jesus Mythicist Creed: The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:24 pm Posts: 4336 Location: 3rd rock from the sun
Dr. Chris Forbes, from the Ancient History Department of Macquarie University has thoroughly embarrassed himself. The book Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection (CIE), is a nearly 600 page book full of the kind of evidence that Dr Forbes claims doesn't exist. ZG1 doesn't claim to be a scholarly documentary but the sources and the theory are strong and irrefutable. Add to that no credible evidence for Jesus.
* at 2:10 Dr. Forbes claims "Horus isn't a sun god"
Dr. Forbes needs to straighten that out with Egyptologists then.
Quote:
"...In CT Sp. 326, Horus is even called “Lord of the sunlight.” Concerning Horus’s solar nature, James Allen also relates:
"Horus was the power of kingship. To the Egyptians this was as much a force of nature as those embodied in the other gods. It was manifest in two natural phenomena: the sun, the most powerful force in nature; and the pharaoh, the most powerful force in human society. Horus’s role as the king of nature is probably the origin of his name: hrw seems to mean “the one above” or “the one far off”... This is apparently a reference to the sun, which is “above” and “far off” in the sky, like the falcon with which Horus is regularly associated..."
"Thus, again, Horus symbolizes the ruling-power aspect of the sun, the “King of kings,” much like Jesus. Even Horus’s very name may signify the sun, and the hawk or falcon, by which he is" identified, likewise represents a solar symbol by virtue of how high it flies. In summary, Dr. Meltzer remarks, “Horus the falcon was predominantly a sky god and a sun god.”
- Christ in Egypt, 47/48
At 2:30 "Son of God is a pun that doesn't work..."
At 3:10 "His [Horus'] mother wasn't a virgin and there's no suggestion in the Egyptian sources that she was"
Quote:
"The Pyramid Texts speak of the great virgin (Hwn.t wr.t) three times (682c, 728a, 2002a, cf. 809c) ...
"In a text in the Abydos Temple of Seti I, Isis herself declares:
"I am the great virgin"
- Christ in Egypt, page 152
* The Pyramid Texts are 4,400 years old.
At 3:27 "It's very unlikely that he was born on December 25th because that is a Latin month. There's no connection at all."
The Gregorian we have now wasn't implemented until 1582 by Pope Gregory but that is not the point here with Horus or any other gods birthday - the point is with the winter solstice and the following three days. Regardless of the calendar used the winter solstice is the darkest day of the year or longest night. It has been celebrated as symbolic as the death of the sun god for millennia. So, the question is why did early Christians select that already well known date for Jesus' birthday if he wasn't another sun god?
So, here we have a professional historian, who is also a professed Christian, who doesn't even know the origins of Christmas.
"The well-known solar feast, however, of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism with Mithraism"
"The 25 December was observed as his birthday, the natalis invicti, the rebirth of the winter-sun, unconquered by the rigours of the season."
- Catholic Enc.
Several early Christian writers connected the rebirth of the sun to the birth of Jesus:
"O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born ... Christ should be born" - Cyprian, source: Catholic Enc.: Christmas
3:40's "Horus was killed and his body scattered around Egypt"
No, that was Osiris. He was cut into 14 pieces.
Quote:
"The number 28 is likewise astrotheological and represents the days of an average or mean monthly lunation, after which the soli-lunar god Osiris is torn into 14 pieces—the number 14 signifying the days of the moon’s waning per month—and then resurrected, as the moon waxes again."
- Christ in Egypt, page 70
At 4:20 "No serious ancient historian doubts that Jesus was a real person really living in Galilee in the first century"
Who Is Gerald Massey? Gerald Massey was actually quite peer reviewed by the top Egyptologists of his day.
5:40 ish onward "Check references, go looking for ancient evidence...historians want to know - can you quote ancient evidence. There's simply no ancient evidence that Horus, Mithras or Dionysus were born on Dec 25th, born of a virgin, crucified. The ancient stories simply don't say that"
Dr. Forbes should start reading Acharya's books then because she does exactly that. Acharya S/Murdock currently has five books with over 2,100 pages of text, including over 5,700 footnotes/citations to primary sources and the works of highly credentialed authorities from a wide variety of relevant fields, adding up to over 1,600 bibliographical sources. Her books also contain over 300 illustrations.
Here's a video clip of modern Egyptologist Dr. Bojana Mojsov admitting parallels between Osiris &/or Horus with Jesus. And, at 5:30 you'll see a stone carving of Isis as she hovers over Osiris in the form of a bird to receive the divine seed (notice there's no 'member') of Osiris. Mojsov then says, "It's a miraculous birth of the savior child."
* Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection (CIE) is nearly 600 pages and contains almost 2,400 footnote/citations to primary sources and expert commentary on them from a wide variety of backgrounds & expertise from over 900 bibliographical references to scholarly journals, books, articles etc and 60+ images and a map.
This guy is a jackass, the interview was totally scripted, and I thought he was going to pull out a gizmo to sell. He essentially tells us that behind the movie he found no "expert" sources, and then to find his truth we are told to become experts ourselves and find those sources that he deems as historical works. Furthermore, he like other so called "experts" would have us believe that only literature should be introduced when considering what is historical. Not taking into account the censorship of so called historical texts, much of history can also be traced through symbolism, language, and oral traditions. The only hint of truth I see in this guy’s word is that Horus probably was first believed to have been the result of sperm with egg, his mother being pure, like the mother of most heroes. As always, before the Coptic dating the particulars of the Egyptian mythos are difficult and as early Christianity developed in parts of Egypt we can at least suspect a morphing of heroes--O yha my godman can do that also! Nonetheless parts of the Horus myth that parallel with Jesus are without doubt pre-Christian.
"Egypt, which you commended to me, my dearest Servianus, I have found to be wholly fickle and inconsistent, and continually wafted about by every breath of fame. The worshipers of Serapis (here) are called 'Christians', and those who are devoted to the god Serapis (I find), call themselves 'Bishops of Christ'. "
Serapis, a construct of Ptolemy, is said to be from Osirus, or Suryas the sun.
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:17 pm Posts: 2248 Location: Everywhere
FTL, that would make an excellent rebuttle video.
_________________ The Jesus Mythicist Creed: The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:24 pm Posts: 4336 Location: 3rd rock from the sun
So, the Christians who posted the video interview with Dr. Chris Forbes are now so thoroughly embarrassed by it that they've taken it down after links to this thread were posted there exposing the utter ignorance of Dr. Forbes demonstrating how poorly informed he was regarding the facts and evidence concerning Zeitgeist part 1. It just looks like the Christians who posted the video with Dr. Chris Forbes now want it to disappear below the radar as if it never existed. Wonder why? What are they so afraid of?
So, I searched for another video by a different user and it has recently been put into the private section so we can't see it. Now, that youtube video of Forbes doesn't exist at youtube. Are Christians trying to hide the monumental errors of their best scholar in his attempt to debunk Zeitgeist part 1?
I guess I shouldn't be surprised to see this comment posted at Wikipedia at the Zeitgeist article. I suppose I better copy/paste it in case it gets removed:
Quote:
Zeitgeist: the Movie:
"Chris Forbes, Senior lecturer in Ancient History of Macquarie University and member of the Synod of the Diocese of Sydney, has severely criticized Part I of the movie as having no basis in serious scholarship or ancient sources, relying on amateur sources that "borrow ideas from each other, and who recycle the same silly stuff" and "not a single serious source" can be found in official reference lists attached to the movie.[33] Of the film he says "It is extraordinary how many claims it makes which are simply not true."[33]
Forbes claims there is no evidence in Egyptian sources saying that Horus' mother Isis was a virgin. Similarly, neither Krishna (the eighth son), Dionysus (whose mother had slept with Zeus) nor Attis were ever supposed born of virgins. He points out that "son" and "sun" are not homophonic words in either Latin, Ancient Egyptian, or Greek, and therefore no such misunderstanding would occur; that the December 25 birth is not part of any of the myths, including that of Jesus, for whom Christmas Day was appointed as a festival day in open knowledge that the real date was not known (December 25 was actually the day when the god Mithras was born out of a stone).[34]
Forbes also criticizes the movie's use of Roman sources to suggest that Jesus didn't exist, noting that a long list flashed across the screen of supposed contemporaneous historians that did not mention Jesus is actually a list of geographers, gardening writers, poets and philosophers, who should not be expected to mention him. The allegation that Josephus' mention of Jesus was added later is criticized as misleading. Josephus actually mentions Jesus twice, with only one reference believed by scholars to have been doctored in the Middle Ages but to change an already existing mention of him. He also argues that the film misrepresents Constantine when it presents him as making Christianity compulsory, when he only legalized it (it was Theodosius I who made it compulsory later in the 4th century) and inventing the historical Jesus, when early records show that the historicity of Jesus had been a key element of faith from early on."
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:24 pm Posts: 4336 Location: 3rd rock from the sun
Yes, that's where it's coming from in my link above Zeitgeist: Time to discard the Christian story?. Hopefully, the Christians at Vimeo won't remove it before someone like yourself re-loads it at youtube.
I'd like to see it back up on youtube loaded from someone other than a Christian so we can use it to make an example out of Dr. Forbes without Christians taking down the video again after they see the embarrassing errors by Dr. Forbes. The info box should contain a link to this thread.
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:17 pm Posts: 2248 Location: Everywhere
You guys are ripping his ass apart here!
Well, unfortunately if he's going to go on record making claims this undefendable then he's taken up the metaphorical sword in the process by his own doing. You know how it goes, 'live by the sword die by the sword...'
_________________ The Jesus Mythicist Creed: The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.
Well, unfortunately if he's going to go on record making claims this undefendable then he's taken up the metaphorical sword in the process by his own doing. You know how it goes, 'live by the sword die by the sword...'
Yeah, just wait until I jump in. I've gone through his video and his radio show, on that Public Christianity site. Wow! He's made so many mistakes, straw men and other fallacies that it's hard to know where to start.
I love all the theatrics too, such as the sighing and eye-rolling. Wave-of-the-hand dismissals of Massey, because he's "an English poet." Well, unfortunately for Dr. Forbes, it turns out that Massey - even from his ancient 19th-century perch - knew FAR more about Egyptian religion than does Forbes. Indeed, by his appeals to credentialism, Forbes hoists himself on his own petard, because he is clearly NOT an Egyptologist. Moreover, his appeal to the sun-son pun as somehow indicating something - making silly remarks about it not existing in ancient Egyptian, Greek, etc. - demonstrates that not only does he not understand that issue but he also has no clue, apparently, that the ancient Greek philosopher Plato himself deemed the sun the "son of God!" All this from an expert on ancient Greek literature!
And there's more, of course...
But if this is the best academia has to offer, we can see why this pertinent information has been buried in the 20th and 21st centuries. In this regard, it is evident that the 19th-century scholars were far more intelligent and better educated on this subject, which makes me reflect on my point about the deliberate dumbing-down after WWII. Sure, the academic reforms and improvements brought intense specialization and some great scientific, archaeological finds, but that development has frequently PROVED the scholarship of the 19th century scholars to have been accurate.
As a major example, the astronomical alignments of ancient buildings were widely discussed in academic circles during the 19th century, but they weren't accepted into the "neo-mainstream" again until the 1960s or so. Now we have an abundance of evidence proving these earlier scholars to have been correct, without the benefit of modern science. So, were they just smarter? Seems so!
_________________ Why suffer from Egyptoparallelophobia, when you can read Christ in Egypt? Try it - you'll like it:
So, it looks like they edited the video to fix that error. Maybe he just misspoke, fair enough but that part of the video from 3:40-ish to 4:16 is definitely different I am 100% confident on that. That is not what he said in the original.
So, it looks like they edited the video to fix that error. Maybe he just misspoke, fair enough but that part of the video from 3:40-ish to 4:16 is definitely different I am 100% confident on that. That is not what he said in the original.
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:24 pm Posts: 4336 Location: 3rd rock from the sun
LOL, the proof is in the pudding, mate. Here's the original version so, be sure to check that section in question starting at 3:40 and compare it to the newer version and you WILL see the difference. They added about 20 seconds of new material on that specific issue. You can see that the original is only 6:37 minutes long while the newer version is 7:03 long.
I haven't checked to see if there have been any other changes yet but I don't think so. Forbes clearly knew one of them had been cut into pieces and scattered across Egypt so, he just misspoke. So, fair enough. The other errors, however, are demonstrably wrong and not fixable.
(Original) Forbes at 3:40 "Horus was killed, cut-up into very small pieces and his body scattered around Egypt so it could never happen again. And the rest of the myth is about Isis trying to collect all the pieces."
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