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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:33 pm 
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American Atheist Board Member Appears to Plagiarize Acharya's Work from The Christ Conspiracy

I stumbled across the article below while reading about the survey on Religious Literacy in America and taking an interest in a piece written by American Atheist President, Dave Silverman. While browsing articles on the American Atheist website I discovered what appears to be a serious case of plagiarism.

The following article purports to have been written by one "Edward Kagin," who is a lawyer and member of American Atheists' Board of Directors, serving as National Legal Director.

The comparisons to the original are provided below the quote in blue. As we can see, it's a virtual lift from Acharya's book The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold (1999).
Quote:
Pre-Christian Christmas Stories with Other Gods

By Edwin Kagin

Deities "born" on December 25:

Horus c. 3000 BCE

--born of the virgin Isis-Merion December 25 in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
--his earthly father was named “Seb” (“Joseph”).
--was of royal descent.
--at 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized having disappeared for 18 years.
--baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by “Anup the Baptizer” (“John the Baptist”), who was decapitated.
--had 12 disciples, two of who were his “witnesses” and were named “Anup” and “Aan” (the two “Johns”).
--performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus (“El-Osiris”), from the dead.
--walked on water.
--his personal epithet was “Iusa,” the “ever-becoming son” of “Ptah,” the “Father.” He was thus called “Holy Child.”
--delivered a “Sermon on the Mount” and his followers recounted the “Sayings of Iusa.”
--was transfigured on the Mount.
--crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.
--he was also the “Way, the Truth, the Light,” “Messiah,” “God’s Anointed Son,” “the “Son of Man,” the “Good Shepherd,” the “Lamb of God,” the “Word made flesh,” the “Word of Truth,” etc.
--he was “the Fisher” and was associated with the Fish (“Ichthys”), Lamb and Lion.
--came to fulfill the Law.
--called “the KRST,” or “Anointed One.”
--was supposed to reign one thousand years.

Inscribed about 3,500 years ago on the walls of the Temple at Luxor were images of the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kneph the “Holy Ghost,” impregnating the virgin; and with the infant being attended by three kings, or magi, bearing gifts. In addition, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis—the original “Madonna and Child.”

Osiris c. 3000 BCE

--Father of Horus, considered to be part of a triune godhead -- Osiris, Horus and Isis.
--Osiris was identified with nearly every other Egyptian god and was on the way to absorbing them all. He had well over 200 divine names.
--He was called the Lord of Lords, King of Kings, God of Gods.
--He was the Resurrection and the Life, the Good Shepherd, Eternity and Everlastingness, the god who “made men and women to be born again.” --From first to last, Osiris was to the Egyptians the god-man who suffered, an died, and rose again, and reigned eternally in heaven. They believed that they would inherit eternal life, just as he had done .
--Osiris’s coming was announced by Three Wise Men: the three stars Mintaka, Anilam, and Alnitak in the belt of Orion, which point directly to Osiris’s star in the east, Sirius (Sothis), significator of his birth . . .
--Osiris was a prototypical Messiah, as well as a devoured Host. His flesh was eaten in the form of communion cakes of wheat, the “plant of Truth.” . . .
--The cult of Osiris contributed a number of ideas and phrases to the Bible. The 23rd Psalm copied an Egyptian text appealing to Osiris the Good Shepherd to lead the deceased to the “green pastures” and “still waters” of the nefer-nefer land, to restore the soul to the body, and to give protection in the valley of the shadow of death (the Tuat).
--The Lord’s Prayer was prefigured by an Egyptian hymn to Osiris-Amen beginning, “O Amen, O Amen, who are in heaven.” Amen was also invoked at the end of every prayer.

Attis of Phrygia c.1400 BCE

-- born on December 25 of the Virgin Nana (or sometimes Cybelem).
-- considered the savior who was slain for the salvation of mankind.
-- his body as bread was eaten by his worshippers
-- his priests were “eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven.”
-- he was both the Divine Son and the Father.
-- he was crucified on a tree on “Black Friday,” from which his holy blood ran down to redeem the earth.
-- descended into the underworld for three days.
-- was resurrected on March 25 (as tradition held of Jesus) as the Most High God. -- reborn as the evergreen pine.

Krishna c. 1400 BCE (possibly as early as 5771 BCE)

-- born of the Virgin Devaki (“Divine One”) on December 25.
--his earthly father was a carpenter, off in the city paying tax when K. was born.
--birth was signaled by a star in the east and attended by angels and shepherds, at which time he was presented with spices.
--heavenly hosts danced and sang at his birth.
--persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants.
--anointed on the head with oil by a woman whom he healed.
--depicted as having his foot on the head of a serpent.
--worked miracles and wonders, raising the dead and healing lepers, the deaf and the blind.
--used parables to teach the people about charity and love, and he “lived poor and he loved the poor.”
--castigated the clergy, charging them with “ambition and hypocrisy . . . Tradition says he fell victim to their vengeance.”
--his “beloved disciple” was Arjuina or Ar-jouan (Jouhn).
--transfigured in front of his disciples.
--gave his twelve disciples the ability to work miracles.
--his path was “strewn with branches.”
--died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.
--killed around the age of 30, and the sun darkened at his death.
--rose from the dead and ascended to heaven “in the sight of all men.”
--depicted on a cross with nail-holes in his feet, as well as having a heart emblem on his clothing.
--the “lion of the tribe of Saki.”
--called the “Shepherd of God” and considered the “Redeemer,” “Firstborn,” “Sin-Bearer,” “Liberator,” “Universal Word.”
--deemed the “Son of God” and “our Lord and Savior,” who came to earth to die for man’s salvation.
--the second person of the Trinity.
--his disciples purportedly bestowed upon him the title “Jezeus,” or “Jeseus,” meaning “pure essence.”

Zoroaster/Zarathustra c. 1000 BCE or earlier

--born of a 15-year-old virgin, Dughdhava and “immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason.”
--he was baptized in a river.
--in his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom.
--was tempted in the wilderness by the devil.
--began his ministry at age 30 wandered around with twelve followers.
--baptized with water, fire and “holy wind.”
--cast out demons and restored the sight to a blind man.
--taught about heaven and hell, and revealed mysteries, including resurrection, judgment, salvation and the apocalypse.
--had a sacred cup or grail.
--was slain.
--his religion had a eucharist.
--he was the “Word made flesh.”
--followers expected a “second coming” in the virgin-born Saoshynt or Savior, who is to come in 2341 CE and begin his ministry at age 30, ushering in a golden age.

Mithra of Persia c. 600 BCE

--born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts.
--considered a great traveling teacher and master.
--had 12 companions or disciples.
--his followers were promised immortality.
--performed miracles.
--the “great bull of the Sun,” Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
-- buried in a tomb and after three days rose again.
--resurrection was celebrated every year.
--called “the Good Shepherd” and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
--considered the “Way, the Truth and the Light,” and the “Logos,” [Word] “Redeemer,” “Savior” and “Messiah.”
--sacred day was Sunday, the “Lord’s Day,” hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
--had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter.
--his religion had a eucharist or “Lord’s Supper,” at which Mithra said, “He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.”
--his annual sacrifice is the Passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement of pledge of moral and physical regeneration.

ALSO, the Vatican is built upon the papacy of Mithra, and the Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced . . . Virtually all of the elements of the Catholic ritual, from miter to wafer to altar to doxology, are directly taken from earlier Pagan mystery religions.

Buddha (Siddartha Gautama) c. 563 BCE

--born on December 25
--born of the Virgin Maya (“the Queen of Heaven”)
-- announced by a star and attended by wise men presenting costly gifts.
--at his birth Brahma angels sang hymns.
--tempted by Mara, the Evil One, while fasting, but overcame the temptation, putting the Evil One to flight.
--taught in temple at age 12 and was able to match the wise religious scholars in their understanding.
-- He healed the sick; fed 500 from a small basket of cakes.
--walked on water.
--Buddha's disciple wanted to hear his lord preach so he started to cross a stream – he doubted and started to sink but he built up his faith and continued to walk across the water.
--came to fulfill the law and preached the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness.
--He obliged followers to live in poverty and to renounce the world.
--In his final years, Buddha was said to have 'crushed a serpent's head' and to have been transfigured on a mount ...'
--It was Buddha, not Christ, who first said: 'If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also'

Heracles c. 800 BCE

--born on December 25 to a virgin who refrained from sex with her until her God-begotten child was born.
--sacrificed at the spring equinox.

Dionysus c. 186 BCE

--born of a virgin on December 25 and, as the Holy Child, was placed in a manger.
--a traveling teacher who performed miracles.
--rode in a triumphal procession on an ass.
-- a sacred king killed and eaten in an eucharistic ritual for fecundity and purification.
--rose from the dead on March 25.
--the God of the Vine, and turned water into wine.
--called “King of Kings” and “God of Gods.”
--considered the “Only Begotten Son,” Savior,” “Redeemer,” “Sin Bearer,” Anointed One,” and the “Alpha and Omega.”
--identified with the Ram or Lamb.
--His sacrificial title of “Dendrites” or “Young Man of the Tree” indicates he was hung on a tree or crucified.

Tammuz c. 400 BCE

--born to a virgin, named Mylitta, on December 25

Adonis c. 200 BCE

--born on December 25 was son of the virgin Myrha. (Almost certainly based on Tammuz).

Hermes

--born on December 25 was the son of the virgin Maia,
--member of a holy trinity Hermes Tris-Megistus.

Bacchus

--born on December 25, was crucified in 200 BCE.

Prometheus

--born on December 25, descended from heaven as a god incarnate as man, to save mankind, and was crucified, suffered, and was redeemed from death.
http://atheists.org/Pre-Christian_Chris ... Other_Gods

The definition of plagiarism:

"1. The unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work."

In order to compare them with Kagin's article quoted above, I've provided below a few of the lists as they appear in Acharya's book, The Christ Conspiracy, except without the footnote numbers. There are more gods discussed in "The Characters" chapter, pp. 105 to 128, along with all of the proper citations.

These lists were originated by Acharya S, in her own words, and where she's quoting or paraphrasing others, she cites her source. If you see similar lists across the net, make sure people know that they were created by Acharya S, and please ask for proper citation to be posted. It appears that many, many more have plagiarized her work without proper citation.

Click on the names of each god in bold below for the Google books link to the original from The Christ Conspiracy:

Horus/Osiris of Egypt from Christ Conspiracy by Acharya S page 115-116

* Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
* His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph").
* He was of royal descent.
* At age 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
* Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" ("John the Baptist"), who was decapitated.
* He had 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "Aan" (the two "Johns").
* He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris"), from the dead.
* Horus walked on water.
* His personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was thus called "Holy Child."
* He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."
* Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
* He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.
* He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "God’s Anointed Son," "the “Son of Man," the "Good Shepherd," the "Lamb of God," the "Word made flesh," the "Word of Truth," etc.
* He was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion.
* He came to fulfill the Law.
* Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One."
* Like Jesus, "Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years."

"Furthermore, inscribed about 3,500 years ago on the walls of the Temple at Luxor were images of the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kneph the "Holy Ghost," impregnating the virgin; and with the infant being attended by three kings, or magi, bearing gifts. In addition, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis—the original "Madonna and Child."

Attis of Phrygia from Christ Conspiracy by Acharya S page 107

* Attis was born on December 25th of the Virgin Nana.
* He was considered the savior who was slain for the salvation of mankind.
* His body as bread was eaten by his worshippers
* His priests were “eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven.”
* He was both the Divine Son and the Father.
* On “Black Friday,” he was crucified on a tree, from which his holy blood ran down to redeem the earth.
* He descended into the underworld.
* After three days, Attis was resurrected on March 25th (as tradition held of Jesus) as the "Most High God."

Krishna of India from Christ Conspiracy by Acharya S page 116-117

* Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki (“Divine One”) on December 25th.
* His earthly father was a carpenter, who was off in the city paying tax while Krishna was born.
* His birth was signaled by a star in the east and attended by angels and shepherds, at which time he was presented with spices.
* The heavenly hosts danced and sang at his birth.
* He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants.
* Krishna was anointed on the head with oil by a woman whom he healed.
* He is depicted as having his foot on the head of a serpent.
* He worked miracles and wonders, raising the dead and healing lepers, the deaf and the blind.
* Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love, and he “lived poor and he loved the poor.”
* He castigated the clergy, charging them with “ambition and hypocrisy . . . Tradition says he fell victim to their vengeance.”
* Krishna's “beloved disciple” was Arjuna or Ar-jouan (Jouhn).
* He was transfigured in front of his disciples.
* He gave his disciples the ability to work miracles.
* His path was “strewn with branches.”
* In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.
* Krishna was killed around the age of 30, and the sun darkened at his death.
* He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven “in the sight of all men.”
* He was depicted on a cross with nail-holes in his feet, as well as having a heart emblem on his clothing.
* Krishna is the “lion of the tribe of Saki.”
* He was called the “Shepherd of God” and considered the “Redeemer,” “Firstborn,” “Sin-Bearer,” “Liberator,” “Universal Word.”
* He was deemed the “Son of God” and “our Lord and Savior,” who came to earth to die for man’s salvation.
* He was the second person of the Trinity.
* His disciples purportedly bestowed upon him the title “Jezeus,” or “Jeseus,” meaning “pure essence.”
* Krishna is to return to judge the dead, riding on a white horse, and to do battle with the "Prince of Evil," who will desolate the earth.

Zoroaster/Zarathustra from Christ Conspiracy by Acharya S page 122-123

* Zoroaster was born of a virgin, and "immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason."
* He was baptized in a river.
* In his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom.
* He was tempted in the wilderness by the devil.
* He began his ministry at age 30.
* Zoroaster baptized with water, fire and “holy wind.”
* He cast out demons and restored the sight to a blind man.
* He taught about heaven and hell, and revealed mysteries, including resurrection, judgment, salvation and the apocalypse.
* He had a sacred cup or grail.
* He was slain.
* His religion had a eucharist.
* He was the “Word made flesh.”
* Zoroaster's followers expect a “second coming” in the virgin-born Saoshyant or Savior, who is to come in 2341 CE and begin his ministry at age 30, ushering in a golden age.

Mithra of Persia from Christ Conspiracy by Acharya S page 118-119

* Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts.
* He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
* He had 12 companions or disciples.
* Mithra's followers were promised immortality.
* He performed miracles.
* As the “great bull of the Sun,” Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
* He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again.
* His resurrection was celebrated every year.
* He was called “the Good Shepherd” and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
* He was considered the “Way, the Truth and the Light,” and the “Logos,” “Redeemer,” “Savior” and “Messiah.”
* His sacred day was Sunday, the “Lord’s Day,” hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
* Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter.
* His religion had a eucharist or “Lord’s Supper,” at which Mithra said, “He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.”
* "His annual sacrifice is the Passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement of pledge of moral and physical regeneration."

The Buddha from Christ Conspiracy by Acharya S page 109-110

* Buddha was born on December 25th of the virgin Maya, and his birth was attended by a "Star of Announcement," wise men and angels singing heavenly songs.
* At his birth, he was pronounced ruler of the world and presented with "costly jewels and precious substances."
* His life was threatened by a king "who was advised to destroy the child, as he was liable to overthrow him."
* Buddha was of royal lineage.
* He taught in the Temple at age 12.
* He crushed a serpent's head (as was traditionally said of Jesus) and was tempted by Mara, the "Evil One," when fasting.
* Buddha was baptized in water, with the "Spirit of God" or "Holy Ghost" present.
* He performed miracles and wonders, healed the sick, fed 500 men from a "small basket of cakes," and walked on water.
* Buddha abolished idolatry, was a "sower of the word," and preached "the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness."
* His followers were obliged to take vows of poverty and to renounce the world.
* He was transfigured on a mount, when it was said that his face "shone as the brightness of the sun and moon."
* In some traditions, died on a cross.
* He was resurrected, as his coverings were unrolled from his body and his tomb was opened by supernatural powers.
* Buddha ascended bodily to Nirvana or "heaven."
* He was called "Lord," "Master," the "Light of the World," "God of Gods," "Father of the World," "Almighty and All-knowing Ruler," "Redeemer of All," "Holy One," the "Author of Happiness," "Possessor of All," the "Omnipotent," the "Supreme Being," the "Eternal One."
* He was considered the "Sin Bearer," "Good Shepherd," the "Carpenter," the "Infinite and Everlasting," and the "Alpha and Omega."
* He came to fulfill, not to destroy, the law.
* Buddha is to return "in the latter days" to restore order and to judge the dead.


Some of these lists in Acharya's book originally came from her 1993 article "The Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical Jesus Christ," the updated version (2009) of which can be found here: Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical Jesus Christ

I think that's enough for readers to get the idea of what's going on here. Kagin's article has also been posted on his myspace and blogspot pages:

Edwin Kagin's Myspace

Edwin Kagin's Blogspot

If this was done on purpose and is not an error, then it is blatantly obvious that Edwin Kagin's article is a copy/paste job of Acharya's work, with a few words changed and some phrases added here and there - an activity that indicates that he knew exactly what he was doing and others have done the same. The fact that he has posted it in several places also suggests it didn't just mistakenly end up on the AA website, and the fact that no one, including Kagin, is correcting the commenters in his blog that it wasn't HE who wrote it but Acharya also indicates intent, rather than error.

Also, a Google search for "Pre-Christian Christmas Stories with Other Gods" turns up quite a few links, and they appear to be posted on a number of major atheist websites. Would that recognition still be the case if the article were properly cited with Acharya S as the source? Would Edwin Kagin and all the other atheists who posted it around still have copied/pasted it if they knew Acharya S was the source? If the information is good enough for American Atheists to post on their website, why has Acharya herself been ignored by them all these years?

We have no problem with others sharing these important points; in fact, we encourage it. However, we do expect proper citation. As any lawyer should know, this sort of plagiarism is a very serious offense - so serious that Edwin Kagin could be sued and disbarred. We have no intention of doing that because we'd prefer to work it out in an amicable manner - in fact, we want to give him and the AA the benefit of the doubt. The American Atheist website and Edwin Kagin simply needs to post the proper citation and link for the article.

We consider ourselves freethinkers and a part of the same team. The discrimination, abuse and any potential misogyny against Acharya S/D.M. Murdock must stop.
Quote:
"...D.M. Murdock/Acharya S, like all authors on controversial subjects, has many critics. But they all share one commonality: They don't know what they're talking about. Murdock understands many languages and has a breadth of knowledge her critics cannot match. This fact irks the uninformed. Having given a fair hearing to some of her online detractors and their "rebuttal" videos, I have detected not only a lack of knowledge on the part of her critics, but also, in some cases, a thinly disguised misogyny."

- David Mills, atheist best-seller author of "Atheist Universe" in his review of Who Was Jesus

Our major problem with this issue aside from what looks like blatant plagiarism is the fact that some atheists hold nothing but contempt for Acharya's work; meanwhile, they actually agree with her thesis when her name isn't mentioned. Acharya has been abused and derogated by some atheists for years, including some from American Atheists who've been holding their noses at the mere mention of her name, even if they've never read her work. Yet, when someone copies her work wholesale, it's plenty good enough to post on the American Atheist website and every other major atheist website as well. People stealing her work and abusing her in multiple ways, including not citing her and deliberately ignoring her and refusing to post her work for discussion i.e. CENSORSHIP - this is what Acharya goes through day after day. In the case of plagiarism, it's not just intellectual dishonesty - which we've seen from several atheists over the years, including Richard Carrier and others who haven't read a single book of hers but who pretend to know all about it - IT'S ILLEGAL.

I'm completely fed-up and disgusted by this poor treatment of one of the greatest independent scholars of comparative religion, mythology and astrotheology in history. Her work in astrotheology is outstanding! Where is the help for Acharya? Are atheists just going to sit back and let all the work she's dug up on astrotheology and mythology be buried for another 2,000 years? People have a right and a responsibility to be aware of our very ancient astrotheological past. We feel it's the origin of religious concepts based on natural phenomena. I know she lives frugally and with almost no assistance from anyone, totally independent of all organizations - being ignored by the likes of AA and others, while they steal her work holding it up as respectable and credible under another name - NICE!

So, I'm curious to see how this will turn out - like I say, I'm willing to give Kagin and the AA the benefit of the doubt. Will the American Atheist website (and the other atheist websites) provide the correct citation and link to the article, or will they just remove it altogether when they find out Acharya S is the proper source? We would like to see the article stay, but with the necessary adjustments and proper citation and link. I've given Kagin and the AA an easy out here and I don't think it's too much to ask. Do you?

We'd also like to see discussion of the newly created Mythicist Position link and video. Never before has there been such a succinct, clearly explained position for mythicists; read this thread for further explanation. Many atheists and freethinkers would most likely appreciate it.

Bust out the popcorn and beers.

_________________
Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
2015 Astrotheology Calendar
Astrotheology Calendar Special
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube
The Mythicist Position


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:58 pm 
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Another significant point that must be mentioned here is that the above lists from the book The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold (1999) and more were utilized significantly in the online movie "Zeitgeist," Part 1 (which received over 200 million views worldwide in over 30 languages); yet, some atheists viciously attack the film, even though it's exactly what is being said in Edwin Kagin's "borrowed" article, which has been endorsed by so many atheists.

Advocating extreme censorship, Carrier says of Zeitgeist part 1, "it and all copies of it should be burned" in front of an audience at a lecture on video which you can see in the blue linked thread. I guess he needs a torch to burn Kagin's article too?

Here's another example of atheists ranting against Zeitgeist Part 1 out of ignorance on video -

Code:
Objections to Zeitgeist (the movie) - The Atheist Experience #634
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-y86El_Dwk

These issues brought up in the video above were addressed long ago:

Another Nasty "Atheist Experience"

The Son of God is the Sun of God

Zeitgeist Part 1 & the Supportive Evidence

The New Zeitgeist Part 1 Sourcebook (August 2010)

FAQ: Do atheists disagree with Acharya's basic premise?

Richard Carrier has apparently been telling people not to mention Acharya S or even discuss her work at all in blogs/articles/books etc. I recently received an e-mail from someone who put in a request to John Loftus at Debunking Christianity to post the mythicist position for open discussion at his blog and his response was:

"Richard Carrier has persuaded me not to say much more on the subject until he puts out his books on it."

So, Loftus refused to even post the mythicist position video & link for simple open discussion or criticism at all. I suppose the truth is that he didn't want to inadvertently advertise her work - for fear that he might be seen as endorsing her or maybe it was because she might gain some slight recognition or that her position might be accepted by some or maybe all the above or what? What's he afraid of?

If some atheists like the above aren't interested in helping us then at least stop impeding us. If they aren't going to help, then stop standing in our way of sharing what we consider the origins and evolution of religious history based in natural phenomena. Acharya S hasn't done a single thing to any of them.

Can anyone else see why atheists have such a difficult time coming together for an ultimate cause - even though we're the largest minority at 16.1% of the US population? We face more than enough discrimination as it is, we don't need more prejudice and bigotry coming from fellow atheists and freethinkers as well.

The Mythicist Challenge Petition

_________________
Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
2015 Astrotheology Calendar
Astrotheology Calendar Special
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube
The Mythicist Position


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:47 pm 
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The plagiarism is blatant. Interesting find indeed. I'm wondering if he didn't cite Acharya because of the contempt going around at AA. It's like you said, pass the same information as if it's from some other source and everyone seems fine with it, I guess. Is there any indication that Carrier or anyone else has ever objected to Kagin's list? And if they haven't objected its probably like you say, they haven't bothered to read the CC in the first place and don't know it's actual content.

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The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:06 pm 
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It's possible that Edward Kagin got it elsewhere from someone else but, he should also know better than to just copy/paste something and make his own adjustments without checking to see where it came from to find the original source. So, he still holds that responsibility and so do the American Atheists. It might be a bit different if it were 9,500 years old and tracking down the original were extremely difficult but in this case, the original source of that article and those lists is easily found on the net through a search; but, apparently none of them even checked.

We would simply like the proper source citation and link posted. And, they could make it up to us by posting and discussing our new mythicist position video and link:
Quote:
The Mythicist Position:

"Mythicism represents the perspective that many gods, goddesses and other heroes and legendary figures said to possess extraordinary and/or supernatural attributes are not “real people” but are in fact mythological characters. Along with this view comes the recognition that many of these figures personify or symbolize natural phenomena, such as the sun, moon, stars, planets, constellations, etc., constituting what is called “astrotheology.” As a major example of the mythicist position, various biblical characters such as Adam and Eve, Satan, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, King David, Solomon & Jesus Christ, among other figures, in reality represent mythological characters along the same lines as the Egyptian, Sumerian, Phoenician, Indian, Greek, Roman and other godmen, who are all presently accepted as myths, rather than historical figures."

- Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection, page 12

"I find it undeniable that many of the epic heroes and ancient patriarchs and matriarchs of the Old Testament were personified stars, planets, and constellations."

- Dr. Robert Price, Biblical Scholar
http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/ ... _egypt.htm

"Your scholarship is relentless! The research conducted by D.M. Murdock concerning the myth of Jesus Christ is certainly both valuable and worthy of consideration."

- Dr. Kenneth L. Feder, Professor of Archaeology
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums ... 33&start=0

The Mythicist Position - video


What is a Mythicist?

The History of Mythicism

For further explanation see, The Evemerist vs. Mythicist Position

Astrotheology of the Ancients

The Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical Jesus Christ

Jesus as the Sun throughout History

The Gospels: A 2nd Century Composition

The 2010 Astrotheology Calendar

The 2011 Astrotheology Calendar

Zeitgeist Part 1 & the Supportive Evidence

The New ZEITGEIST Part 1 Sourcebook (2010)

National Geographic's "Ancient Astronomers"

The Solstice Project - Sun Dagger

National Geographic's "Nebra Sky Disc"

"Suns of God" Video Lecture with Acharya S

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Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:11 pm 
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Has the issue of plagiarism been brought to their attention yet? I mean if they stand behind the material then they may as well go all the way and make sure to cite Murdock's work accordingly and give public support to the MP itself as you suggest.

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The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

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Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:56 pm 
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I would send them a certified letter pointing out the plagiarism.
What is their problem with Acharya and her work?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:55 pm 
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Nah, we're not gonna get certified on them. We're taking the plagiarism as a compliment (sort of) for now. It's all the other crap that really pisses us off and we're really burned out on it.
Quote:
"What is their problem with Acharya and her work?"

Well, they've always had a knee-jerk reaction to the pen name Acharya right out of the gate and the word "conspiracy" in the title of her first book, for starters. From there it's just easier to be intellectually lazy and dismiss her entire body of work than it is to actually study her books. And then there's a number of false accusations, smears and libel easily found across the net, most of which have already been addressed in Acharya's Frequently Asked Questions and other criticisms or blatant lies which have also been addressed throughout this forum.

"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance."
— Albert Einstein


Acharya S/Murdock has written several books totaling nearly 3,000 pages of material including over 7,456 footnotes/citations to primary sources and the works of highly credentialed and respected authorities in relevant fields of study from a wide variety of backgrounds, including many Christian scholars, adding up to over 2,314 bibliographical sources. Her books also include 456+ images thus far. She works hard to substantiate her claims with credible evidence and sources specifically due to the fact that this subject is so contentious.

The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold by Acharya S (Jul 1, 1999)
Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled by Acharya S (Sep 1, 2004)
Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ by D.M. Murdock, Acharya S (Nov 28, 2007)
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection by D.M. Murdock/Acharya S (Feb 28, 2009)
The Gospel According to Acharya S (2009)
Man Made God: A Collection of Essays by Barbara G. Walker (2010)
Anahita: Ancient Persian Goddess and Zoroastrian Yazata (2013)
Bart Ehrman and the Quest of the Historical Jesus of Nazareth: An Evaluation of Ehrman s Did Jesus Exist? (2013)
Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver by D.M. Murdock/Acharya S (2014)

Her book, Christ in Egypt alone consists of nearly 2,400 footnotes/citations and 60+ images.

Scholars who've actually studied her work have this to say:

"Your scholarship is relentless! ...the research conducted by D.M. Murdock concerning the myth of Jesus Christ is certainly both valuable and worthy of consideration."
—Dr. Kenneth L. Feder, Professor of Archaeology, Central Connecticut State University, Frauds, Myths, and Mysteries: Science and Pseudoscience In Archaeology

"I find myself in full agreement with Acharya S/D.M. Murdock... I find it undeniable that...many, many of the epic heroes and ancient patriarchs and matriarchs of the Old Testament were personified stars, planets, and constellations..."
—Dr. Robert M. Price, The Pre-Nicene New Testament

"I can recommend your work whole-heartedly!"
—Dr. Robert Eisenman, James the Brother of Jesus and The New Testament Code, RobertEisenman.com

"Acharya S deserves to be recognized as a leading researcher and an expert in the field of comparative mythology, on a par with James Frazer or Robert Graves—indeed, superior to those forerunners in the frankness of her conclusions and the volume of her evidence."
—Barbara Walker, The Women's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets and Man Made God

"I've known people with triple Ph.D's who haven't come close to the scholarship in Who Was Jesus?"
—Pastor David Bruce, M.Div, North Park Seminary, Chicago, HollywoodJesus.com

"Thirty years ago, when in divinity school, I might have had second thoughts about becoming an Episcopal priest if a book like D. M. Murdock's Who Was Jesus? had been available to me."
—Bob Semes, Retired university professor of History and Religion, Founder and Executive Director of The Jefferson Center

"Ms. Murdock is one of only a tiny number of scholars with the richly diverse academic background (and the necessary courage) to adequately address the question of whether Jesus Christ truly existed as a walking-talking figure in first-century Palestine."
—David Mills, Atheist Universe

"Thank you, Acharya, for the important work you are doing. Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of the Christ just might be the best short introduction to Biblical scholarship yet."
—David Bergland, 1984 Libertarian Party Presidential Candidate, Libertarianism In One Lesson

"...I have found her scholarship, research, knowledge of the original languages, and creative linkages to be breathtaking and highly stimulating."
—Rev. Dr. Jon Burnham, Pastor, Presbyterian Church, Houston, TX

"Acharya S has done a superb job in bringing together the rich panoply of ancient world mythology and culture, and presenting it in a comprehensive and compelling fashion."
—Earl Doherty, The Jesus Puzzle

"The Christ Conspiracy—very, very scholarly and wholly researched—is a book for today..."
-Rev. B. Strauss, ex-Catholic Priest, Chicago, IL

"Amidst the global chaos of George Bush's War on Terror, largely founded on religious intolerance and simplistic notions of good and evil, Acharya S is the voice of reason."
—Joan D'Arc, Paranoia

"D.M. Murdock could well be the most brilliant, insightful and rigorous theologian writing today."
—Robert Tulip

"Acharya S is the ranking religious philosopher of our era."
—John K.

"Acharya S/Murdock deserves an award for her hard work and courage. She is the Galileo of our day!"
—Charles Johnson

There's more commentary from a large variety of folks in the Emails I Have Loved thread.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:58 am 
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FTL wrote:
I've heard that Carrier asked Brian Flemming, creator of the movie "The God Who Wasn't There," not to include Acharya in the film. Carrier has apparently been going around ever since telling people not to mention Acharya or even discuss her work at all in blogs/articles/books etc. I recently received an e-mail from someone who put in a request to John Loftus at Debunking Christianity to post the mythicist position for open discussion at his blog and his response was:

"Richard Carrier has persuaded me not to say much more on the subject until he puts out his books on it."

So, Loftus refused to even post the mythicist position video & link for simple open discussion or criticism at all. I suppose the truth is that he didn't want to inadvertently advertise her work - for fear that he might be seen as endorsing her or maybe it was because she might gain some slight recognition or that her position might be accepted by some or maybe all the above or what? What's he afraid of?

If some atheists like the above aren't interested in helping us then at least stop impeding us. If they aren't going to help, then stop standing in our way of sharing what we consider the origins and evolution of religious history based in natural phenomena. Acharya S hasn't done a single thing to any of them.


The bottom line here is that they should be promoting this information and they should be supporting and defending Acharya from wrongful accusations, not joining in on the mud slinging. In listening to Richard Carrier speak about mythicism, I see that he feels that incorrect claims about the Jesus myth hurts mythicism, and that ZG and Acharya are a problem in his quest to swing mainstream scholarship in favor of mythicism. Carrier has the agenda of wanting to present very narrow evidence for mythicism that he thinks is strong enough to make an impact on mainstream scholarship. He's going to have to actually read the material and explain point by point why this information which comes from highly credentialed and respected sources in the first place, is not respectable and doesn't qualify as valid information. And I would expect to see nothing more than an extension of what he's already provided in terms of the Luxor nativity scene folly.

The evidence is all there on the table. The citations are all there for the taking. The scholarship coming from respected publications is in order. Now because these parallels do exist and were readily available for formulating the Christ myth as she's proven, they should be emphasized to mainstream scholars who are currently unaware of the existence of this respected scholarship dealing with the Egyptian religion and pagan parallels. Carrier has already made a fool of himself with the Luxor nativity folly. How in the hell is that suppose to help mythicism along? To be honest, I don't see Carrier as the person who's going to convince mainstream scholarship that mythicism is the way to go. He doesn't seem competent enough to do it.

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:57 am 
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^Speaking of Carrier's Luxor folly(sorry, I've never really delved into the subject of the Luxor nativity), I saw this video on youtube recently by an alleged debunker, and I was curious, is he just rehashing Carrier's error?-


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:46 am 
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Quote:
^Speaking of Carrier's Luxor folly(sorry, I've never really delved into the subject of the Luxor nativity), I saw this video on youtube recently by an alleged debunker, and I was curious, is he just rehashing Carrier's error?-

Here is what that guy has in his youtube profile:
Quote:
"The videos are supportive of the historic Christian Faith as taught by the Apostles, attested to in Holy Scripture, and defended in the Ecumenical Councils of the early Church."

That was painful to watch. I'm not sure if it had anything to do with Carrier's Luxor article or not, you'd have to ask him to be sure. I doubt it, I think he's just a bible thumper out to shore up his Christian faith at all costs.

Send him these comments:
Quote:
"The Pyramid Texts speak of "the great virgin" (Hwn.t wr.t) three times (682c, 728a, 2002a, cf. 809c)" ...

"In a text in the Abydos Temple of Seti I, Isis herself declares:

"I am the great virgin"

- Christ in Egypt, page 152

"The Egyptian goddess who was equally ‘the Great Virgin’ (hwnt) and ‘Mother of the God’ was the object of the very same praise bestowed upon her successor [Mary, Virgin Mother of Jesus]."

- Dr. Witt, an Egyptologist

* The Pyramid Texts are 4,400 years old.

Here's a video clip of modern Egyptologist Dr. Bojana Mojsov admitting parallels between Osiris &/or Horus with Jesus. And, at 5:30 you'll see a stone carving of Isis as she hovers over Osiris in the form of a bird to receive the divine seed (notice there's no 'member') of Osiris. Mojsov then says, "It's a miraculous birth of the savior child."


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Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:48 am 
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Yeah Tat, isn't strange that Carrier is persuading others not to discuss the case for mythicism and the mythicist position presented by Acharya S/Murdock until he puts out his books on it? Is it just me or is there something really disturbing about that? Does Carrier have some sort of superiority complex? Apparently, nobody can discuss these issues correctly except Carrier.

Speaking of hurting the case for mythicism, that Luxor article you mention is a perfect example. Carrier's criticism of Acharya's original Luxor article contained some egregious and sloppy errors, which he has yet to take any responsibility for.

Here's one example of what Acharya discovered when reviewing Carriers Luxor criticisms:
Quote:
"However, in "skimming" Brunner's text, as he puts it, Carrier has mistakenly dealt with the substantially different Hatshepsut text (Brunner's "IV D"), demonstrating an egregious error in garbling the cycles, when in fact we are specifically interested in the Luxor narrative (IV L). "
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/luxor.html

Another major problem with Carrier is that he has influenced others (Rook Hawkins/Tom Verenna) who view him as their "HERO" to write nasty intellectually dishonest reviews about Acharya's books at their blogs that they admit they've never even read!!! I'd like to see atheists like Richard Carrier (who hasn't read a single book by Acharya S/Murdock) stop treating us like we're an enemy - we are not any sort of enemy. Acharya has never done anything to Carrier to provoke him in any way.

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Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:57 am 
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GodAlmighty wrote:
^Speaking of Carrier's Luxor folly(sorry, I've never really delved into the subject of the Luxor nativity), I saw this video on youtube recently by an alleged debunker, and I was curious, is he just rehashing Carrier's error?-

In CiE on page 182 Murdock points out the error in Carrier's assertion that a "soft core porn" scene is taking place at Luxor according to Brunner's German text. Here's the primary quote of interest:
Quote:
However, in "skimming" Brunner's text, as he puts it, Carrier has mistakenly dealt with the substantially different Hatshepsut text (Brunner's "IV D"), demonstrating an egregious error in garbling the cycles, when in fact we are specifically interested in the Luxor narrative (IV L).


And there's a whole section covering the many errors made by Carrier when mix matching the Hatshepsut text with the Luxor nativity. And it does sound like the apologist in the video has taken Carrier's "soft core porn" scene folly and run with it. And the chapter in CiE shows point by point what the mistakes are and what the Luxor text actually deals with in reality. This just goes to show how absolutely unprofessional Carrier actually is while trying to attack other mythicists in an attempt to promote his views as the 'ultimate authority'. Most of his objections against the claims in Acharya's work have been shown to be wrong time and again. We have threads around here with Carrier saying one thing along side the evidence from the books that prove him totally wrong on the matter. And this is why I don't see Carrier as the guy who's going to swing mainstream scholarship towards mythicism. It's his dream and his goal, but unless he gets down to business and educates himself on the actual evidence out there for mythicism, his dreams won't come true as I see it. He can't keep making such a public ass of himself like this. It makes the whole mythicist position look bad, the very thing he's accusing ZG and Acharya of. I wish to God that Carrier would actually come out and denounce mythicism altogether and take an evemerist position or something else just so that we don't have such a complete idiot trying to take the reigns, push the other authors aside, and lead the way himself as the absolute authority for mythicism.

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:13 am 
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I wonder if that section in CIE showing Carrier's errors is keeping the book from being read by atheists - did he put the kibosh on that too, like he's done with discussing the mythicist position?

I'm reminded of Acharya's review of Jesus: God, Man or Myth? by Herb Cutner:

Quote:
"...In Jesus: God, Man or Myth? Cutner goes into some detail about this important development and debate, which was so widely known among the elite for decades, if not centuries, but which is almost completely unknown to the masses at large. Indeed, in response to my book The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold, a number of individuals have expressed that they've "never heard such a thing before!" That such an allegation that Jesus Christ is a mythical character is simply "outrageous," and, as one Christian apologist claimed, "There must be three people in the universe who don't believe Jesus existed." This latter assertion is completely erroneous, obviously. As stated, thousands of people have questioned and disbelieved in the historicity of Christ - and many of them have been some of the most intelligent and erudite individuals to live on planet Earth. The idea that this information, once "discovered" or expressed, would then be embraced and revealed to the public is not only naive but silly, especially considering that not only are reputations and vocations at stake but also are billions of dollars annually in the religion business. Because of such entrenched concerns, the mythicist school was fought tooth and nail, and almost buried, save for the few daring individuals who kept it alive over the past decades. Cutner is one of these rare and courageous individuals who risked the malevolence and vitriol of the clergy and its zealots. In his synopsis of the historical-versus-mythical, Cutner notes that the clergy's "adversaries" were dispatched in the most unprofessional and puerile manner:
Quote:
"Long ago the celebrated Dr. Bentley, in trying to dispose of Anthony Collins, had found one very fine method: convict your Freethinking opponent of fraud, ignorance, and bad scholarship, and his thesis falls to the ground. I should say rather, try to convict your opponent by this method, for some of the mud thrown is sure to stick.... By thus concentrating on mistakes of grammar or Greek, the reader is unwarily led away from the main issue which is exactly what the critic wants. Over and over again Christian controversialists have pursued this method, as if it always mattered greatly that a present tense of Greek should be the imperfect, or that a date should be conjectured as, let us say, 1702 when it ought to be 1712 in the opinion of somebody else. (27-28)"

"Indeed, there is hardly a mythicist who has not experienced such treatment, even at the hands of other mythicists and/or freethinkers, another fact highlighted by Cutner, who shows that the early modern mythicists were viciously attacked not only by Christians but also by other "rationalists" and "freethinkers" who, in their attempts to remain "respectable" with the Christian elite, mindlessly fell in line and displayed a real lack of critical thinking. Professional jealousy also factors into this type of vitriol, as various scholars want their particular interpretation to become that which is accepted by the establishment....."

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:24 am 
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And that explains Carrier's motive in a nut shell. Here's Carrier on ZG just in case anyone missed it at the top of the thread:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3381&start=0

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The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:40 pm 
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Richard Dawkins on Zeitgeist Part 1

While we're at it with the strange things atheists have said and done, I dug up this old message someone shared with us a couple years ago, along with Acharya's response. We were astounded by Dawkins' comments - he seems to know nothing about the history of even the basics of ancient religious beliefs and traditions; keep in mind that Richard Dawkins is a biologist not a theologian. Like Richard Carrier, Dawkins has much to offer in his arguments for atheism, which I appreciate, however, he nor Carrier are the goto guy for me when it comes to comparative religion, mythology and astrotheology.

Back in 2008, someone asked Dawkins about the first part of the first Zeitgeist movie, and he responded:
Quote:
"I am deeply suspicious of this video. I think there are SOME revealing similarities between the Jesus myth, and the other god myths mentioned. But there are surely not as many similarities as are alleged here. For example, all those gods being born on 'December 25th.' That would be an amazingly powerful weapon against Christianity if it were true, but it is surely not true. Our system of naming dates didn't even exist when some of those god myths arose. This cavalier use of 'December 25th' is just one example. I am suspicious of many other details on similar grounds. The whole film has the air of something made up, in pursuit of an anti-Christian agenda (with which I happen to sympathize) but with almost complete disregard for truth, which I fear parallels the lies told by religious apologists."

- Richard Dawkins

Acharya's response at the time was:
Quote:
The video appears to be from the movie "Zeitgeist, Part 1." This particular version, which was posted in June 2007, was the rough cut before I consulted on the final, official edition. There are therefore a few contentions in this particular version that are not easily supportable by the data. I would suggest watching the official version at http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com

Other than a couple of points where my work was not involved, I can attest to the accuracy of the official version of "Zeitgeist, Part 1," which was in fact edited at my suggestion. Representing only some 25 minutes on a massive subject, ZG1 does not pretend to be a scholarly and exhaustive documentary on the matter. It is in reality a quick and effective introduction to the world of comparative religion and mythology, which I have been studying for decades and about which I have written a number of books and articles, etc.

Regarding the manner in which scholarly information is brought to the attention of lay people, Dr. Gerd Theissen put it succinctly:

"...much that is involved in the process of scholarly work requires patience from readers who are primarily interested in immediately illuminating results."

- Theissen, The Historical Jesus: A Comprehensive Guide, ix.

In other words, ZG1 presents the "immediately illuminating results," and I can assure you that there is plenty of scholarship to back them up. This information can be found in my books, articles and videos, which are linked hereto.

From the exchange..., I would guess that you are familiar with comparative religion and mythology to some extent, as you are obviously aware of the December 25th birthday of the sun god, providing a very good response.

In this regard, I am surprised at the remarks by Dr. Dawkins - I'm assuming the message below is from the Richard Dawkins? His comments could be construed as both uninformed and inflammatory. I was startled that his remarks indicate he doesn't know anything about the winter-solstice ("Christmas") birthday of the sun god. To insinuate that these widely known comparisons are "lies" seems egregious.

I am about to complete a 600-page study of the Egyptian religion's influence on Christianity called Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection, including a thorough analysis of the winter-solstice/December 25th birthday of the sun god Horus. My work covers thousands of pages of original material - some of it reproduced in the original language, including Egyptian, Hebrew, Greek, Latin and Coptic - as well as hundreds of works from highly credentialed scholars in relevant fields.

Here is just a little taste:
Quote:
It has been the frequent contention of writers since antiquity that, like many other cultures, the Egyptians too celebrated the birth of the sun at the winter solstice, a logical conclusion, considering the reverence with which the sun was held in Egypt. Concerning this cycle in Egypt, in "Isis and Osiris" (65, 378C), Plutarch remarked that Horus the Child—or "Harpocrates," his Greek name—was "born about the winter solstice, unfinished and infant-like..." This term "Harpocrates" is a Greek word, which in the original Egyptian is "Her-pa-chruti" or "Heru-pa-Chrat," meaning "the morning sun." This fact of Plutarch stating that Horus was born on "December 25th" is vitally important to keep in mind, because there has been much denial and censorship of it.

Of course, since then Acharya's written much more on the subject, including her book Christ in Egypt, as well as the new Zeitgeist Sourcebook (2010). Plus, I've organized the thread, Zeitgeist Part 1 & the Supportive Evidence.

It really is astonishing that Dawkins doesn't know anything about the winter solstice/ "December 25th" birthday of the sun god solar motif and how it was adopted into Christianity. Especially since it's already well known to practically everybody else, including many other atheists. Dawkins's comment is a monumental disappointment.

Unfortunately, it appears that this type of rigid adherence to ignorance of mythology influences many atheists who hold great admiration towards those high profile atheists like Dawkins. I think what surprises me most about his comment is the fact that after claiming it would be an "amazingly powerful weapon against Christianity," he just does a hand-waving dismissal; he isn't even interested in researching further, which, of course, is the attitude that has kept this information buried for the last 2,000 years, and Dawkins is inadvertently participating in keeping it buried for another 2,000 years. And these guys are suppose to be on our side?

He's negating the association of the sun god with the winter solstice because if it were true Christianity would be weakened. Well, the sun god IS associated with the winter solstice or "Christmas," and this fact has been known for many centuries. Christian apologists just slough off the correspondence of Christmas with the winter solstice simply because the date is not specifically named in the New Testament as Jesus's birthday, even though many billions of Christians have celebrated Jesus's birthday on Dec 25th; same as the pre-christian Pagans did with their own sun gods long before the Christians. Now, where do you think this tradition came from - pre-christian Paganism, perhaps?

However, the bible does specifically mention that John the Baptist and Jesus were born 6 months apart, and June 24th is celebrated as his birthday - known as St. John's Day - which is 3 days after the summer solstice begins. St. John's Day is also one of the oldest celebrations of Christianity. For more, see John the Baptist and Jesus' Birthdays

And for Dawkins's information, the phrase "December 25th" is just a convenient figure of speech to describe the winter solstice and Christmas time period, regardless of the calendar and era, since the Gregorian calendar wasn't implemented until 1582 by Pope Gregory. Originally, "Christmas" type celebrations were PART OF winter solstice celebrations, which has since been so completely severed that people today never make the connection between Christmas and the winter solstice. Scholars call this 3-day period in between the winter solstice and Christmas a triduum. It's the time period for which the sun god or god is symbolically in a cave or tomb for 3 days. There's another example of a triduum at Easter as well from Good Friday to Easter Sunday.

Happy Birthday, Mithras! The True Meaning of December 25th
by Gary Leupp, Professor of History at Tufts University, and Adjunct Professor of Comparative Religion.

The Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical Jesus Christ
Quote:
"In this regard, a century ago Dr. K.A. Heinrich Kellner, a professor of Catholic Theology at the University of Bonn stated concerning "Christmas, or the feast of our Lord’s birth," that the "whole Church, and all the sects, agree in observing the 25th December as this date."2 This type of proclamation came in America only after a hard-fought battle for nearly a century in which certain fundamentalist Christian groups strenuously objected to December 25th for Christ’s birthday, specifically because the date was too Pagan, before "Christmas" became an official federal holiday in 1870.3 Although it took a long time for "Christmas" to catch on, it was not particularly long before the real significance of the date—i.e., the winter solstice—had been completely severed to the point where very few people were aware of its existence. So it was for the bulk of humanity up until recently, largely because of the efforts to educate about the true meaning of "Christmas" as the winter solstice."

In actuality, it would be highly refreshing for the facts regarding the true meaning of Christmas to be known around the world: To wit, "Christmas"—or the winter solstice—represents the birth of the sun god dating back thousands of years. In other words, as Christian apologists who claim Christ was not born on December 25th must agree, Jesus is not the "reason for the season," which is precisely the point of this discussion. In addition, since it is our contention that the character in the gospels called "Jesus Christ" is mythical, it is quite futile to argue that December 25th is not the "real" date of his birthday, since myths do not have "real birthdays."

- Christ in Egypt, page 80

I'll provide a quote below to demonstrate a bit of pre-Christian Pagan history from the first century BCE:

"Now when the ancient Egyptians, awestruck and wondering, turned their eyes to the heavens, they concluded that two gods, the sun and the moon, were primeval and eternal; and they called the former Osiris, the latter Isis..."
- Diodorus Siculus, Greek Historian (90-21 BCE)
"Suns of God" page 89

Below are some very interesting quotes regarding Jesus' December 25th birth date by a handful of very prominent early Christians but, it's important to keep in mind that celebrating birthdays in those days was looked down upon, which could be a reason why a specific date for Jesus's birthday was not mentioned in the New Testament. Or, *IF* Jesus really existed (there exists no credible evidence that he did) perhaps the birth date was omitted or removed, or maybe Jesus truly is a mythological character and the pre-Xian, well-known popular celebration date for the sun god had simply not yet been usurped by Christianity, which is the most likely scenario and what the evidence that actually exists demonstrates. So, we already know the bible doesn't specifically mention Jesus' birth date, however, Dec 25th is the traditional date and Christianity has no plans on changing it so, it's just more evidence that Jesus is just another mythical character.

Read the Zeitgeist Sourcebook page 52 #23 and more for further information on this topic: Sourcebook: Zeitgeist Part 1 transcript & sources

Early Church Father Tertullian (160-220 C.E.), an "ex-Pagan" and Presbyter of Carthage ironically admits the true origins of the Christ story and of all other such godmen by stating in refutation of his critics, "You say we worship the sun; so do you." (paraphrase from the Catholic Encyclopedia)
- "Christ Conspiracy" (1999) page 158

Quote:
"The earliest identification of the 25th of December with the birthday of Christ is in a passage, otherwise unknown and probably spurious, of Theophilus of Antioch (A.D. 171-183), preserved in Latin by the Magdeburg centuriators (i. 3, 118), to the effect that the Gauls contended that as they celebrated the birth of the Lord on the 25th of December, whatever day of the week it might be, so they ought to celebrate the Pascha on the 25th of March when the resurrection befell."

- Classic Encyclopedia: Christmas

Quote:
"The first evidence of the feast is from Egypt. About A.D. 200, Clement of Alexandria (Stromata I.21) says that certain Egyptian theologians "over curiously" assign, not the year alone, but the day of Christ's birth, placing it on 25 Pachon (20 May) in the twenty-eighth year of Augustus. [Ideler (Chron., II, 397, n.) thought they did this believing that the ninth month, in which Christ was born, was the ninth of their own calendar.] Others reached the date of 24 or 25 Pharmuthi (19 or 20 April). With Clement's evidence may be mentioned the "De paschæ computus", written in 243 and falsely ascribed to Cyprian (P.L., IV, 963 sqq.), which places Christ's birth on 28 March, because on that day the material sun was created. But Lupi has shown (Zaccaria, Dissertazioni ecc. del p. A.M. Lupi, Faenza, 1785, p. 219) that there is no month in the year to which respectable authorities have not assigned Christ's birth. Clement, however, also tells us that the Basilidians celebrated the Epiphany, and with it, probably, the Nativity, on 15 or 11 Tybi (10 or 6 January)."

- Catholic Encyclopedia: Christmas

Website by a Christian: http://dec25th.info

Hippolytus in his commentary on Daniel 4.23.3 (written between 202 to 211 C.E.):

"For the first advent of our Lord in the flesh, when he was born in Bethlehem, was December 25th ..."

Hippolytus and December 25th as the date of Jesus’ birth

Hippolytus and the Original Date of Christmas

Hippolytus and December 25th, the birthday of Christ-Christmas

"Were the Chalki manuscript of Hippolytus genuine, evidence for the December feast would exist as early as c. 205."
- Catholic Enc. Christmas

Sextus Julius Africanus popularized the idea that Jesus was born on December 25 in Chronographiai 221 CE, an early reference book for Christians.

In 245, the theologian Origen denounced the idea of celebrating the birthday of Jesus "as if he were a king pharaoh." Only sinners, not saints, celebrate their birthdays, Origen contended.

"O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born ... Christ should be born"
- Cyprian, around 250, Catholic Enc. Christmas

"The birth of Christ was assigned the date of the winter solstice (December 25 in the Julian calendar, January 6 in the Egyptian), because on this day, as the Sun began its return to northern skies, the pagan devotees of Mithras celebrated the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti (Birthday of the Invincible Sun). On December 25, 274, [Roman Emperor] Aurelian had proclaimed the Sun God the principal patron of the Empire and dedicated a temple to Him in the Campus Martius. Christmas originated at a time when the cult of the Sun was particularly strong at Rome."
- New Catholic Encyclopaedia (Vol. III, p.656, 1967 ed.)

"The well-known solar feast, however, of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism with Mithraism"
- Catholic Enc. Christmas

"Sunday was kept holy in honour of Mithra, and the sixteenth of each month was sacred to him as mediator. The 25 December was observed as his birthday, the natalis invicti, the rebirth of the winter-sun, unconquered by the rigours of the season."
- Catholic Enc. Mithraism ... * Notice the word "REBIRTH," which means that the sun was perceived to have symbolically died & resurrected.

In 320, Pope Julius I specified the 25th of December as the official date of the birth of Jesus Christ.

In Rome, December 25 was made popular by Pope Liberius in 354. This coincided with the date of a celebration by the Romans to their primary god, the Sun, and to Mithras, a popular Persian sun god supposedly born on the same day. The Roman Catholic writer Mario Righetti candidly admits that, "to facilitate the acceptance of the faith by the pagan masses, the Church of Rome found it convenient to institute the 25th of December as the feast of the birth of Christ to divert them from the pagan feast, celebrated on the same day in honor of the 'Invincible Sun' Mithras, the conqueror of darkness" (Manual of Liturgical History , 1955, Vol. 2, p. 67).

"But Our Lord, too, is born in the month of December . . . the eight before the calends of January [25 December] . . ., But they call it the 'Birthday of the Unconquered'. Who indeed is so unconquered as Our Lord . . .? Or, if they say that it is the birthday of the Sun, He is the Sun of Justice."
- St. John Chrysostom, around 386 CE, Catholic Enc. Christmas

"A feast is approaching which is the most solemn and awe-inspiring of all feasts....What is it? The birth of Christ according to the flesh. In this feast namely Epiphany..."
- John Chrysostom, Homily VI: On St. Philogonius (23-24)

"Let us, my Brethren, rejoice," cries out St. Augustine, "this day is sacred, not because of the visible sun, but because of the Birth of Him Who is the invisible Creator of the sun... He chose this day whereon to be born, as He chose the Mother of Whom to be born, and He made both the day and the Mother. The day He chose was that on which the light begins to increase, and it typifies the work of Christ, Who renews our interior man day by day. For the eternal Creator having willed to be born in time, His Birthday would necessarily be in harmony with the rest of His creation."

"The same holy Father gives us the interpretation of a mysterious expression of St. John the Baptist, who said on one occasion, when speaking of Christ: He must increase, but I must decrease (John 3: 30). These prophetic words signify that the Baptist's mission was at its close, because Jesus was entering upon His. But they also convey, as St. Augustine assures us, a second meaning: "John came into this world at the season of the year when the length of the day decreases (June 24); Jesus was born in the season when the length of the day increases."
- St. Augustine, around 400 CE The Mystery of Christmas

"All the gods of the Greek and Roman mythology represent the attributes of the one supreme divine power - the SUN."
- Macrobius, Roman Historian around 400 CE
"Suns of God" (2004) pages 67-68

Lets not forget that while all that was going on the mass destruction of the entire Pagan world had began: Pagan Destruction Chronology (314-870 C.E)

What Dawkins and some atheists don't realize is that mythology and astrotheology ARE amazingly powerful tools or keys which have the potential to neutralize most religious fundamentalism and eschatology by giving deeper explanation and substance behind these myths and their symbology. Astrotheology and the mythology that goes with it demonstrates that the origin of religious concepts are founded upon natural phenomena. These myths were considered "mysteries" in the ancient world which have evolved over time in accordance with environment, culture and era. It's all part of the case for mythicism as well as our recently created Mythicist Position, which one would think folks like Dawkins would appreciate. It sounds like Dawkins has much to learn from the works by Acharya S. I challenge Dawkins to read Christ in Egypt and write a review.

In The God Delusion, page 119:
Quote:
"Robert Gillooly shows how all the essential features of the Jesus legend, including the star in the east, the virgin birth, the veneration of the baby by kings, the miracles, the execution, the resurrection and the ascension are borrowed - every last one of them - from other religions already in existence in the Mediterranean and Near East region."

What we see here is Dawkins, without hesitation, deferring to Tom Flynn who defers to Robert Gillooly, saying "the essential features of the Jesus legend ... are borrowed - every last one of them - from other religions already in existence," yet, when Zeitgeist Part 1 or Acharya S are mentioned saying the same thing about Christmas, Dawkins rejects it out of hand immediately without any interest in learning more about it. It's very frustrating and disappointing especially when this guy is held up as the world's most famous atheist, supposedly on our side!!! There are simply far too many atheists oblivious to the substance behind these myths and it's precisely what's missing from the discussion. It also demonstrates the DIRE need for people to be made well aware of the mythicist position.

On a side note, for another very interesting read check this out:

Acharya's Work Complements Sam Harris's Philosophy

Christmas and Easter are the most popular celebrations in Christianity and neither originated with Christianity - they both were created by pre-xian Paganism and evolved over time.

The Christmas Hoax: Jesus is NOT the "Reason for the Season"



Easter: Christian or Pagan?



The Mythicist Position


What is a Mythicist?

_________________
Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
2015 Astrotheology Calendar
Astrotheology Calendar Special
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The Mythicist Position


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