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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:00 am 
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I debunked R here: http://www.outlawjournalism.com/forum/v ... php?t=5691

The formatting is very bad, but at least the information is all in one place. I'll reformat it later this week.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:38 am 
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Well done, blissentia. Thanks for taking the time to tackle all of that.

Here's a direct link to the post by blissentia addressing Edward Winston's con-sci website and his pseudoskepticism of Zeitgeist part 1 and Acharya Zeitgeist pt. 1/Astrotheology/Acharya S./Pseudoskepticism

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:25 am 
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I fixed the formatting, added a table of contents, and added a lot of new info.

You can view the radically transformed thread here: http://www.outlawjournalism.com/forum/v ... php?t=5691


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:27 pm 
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A post was posted over in Conspiracy Science (CS) for short for some reason or another by one Muertos titled (Re: Acharya S.)
Code:
http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/topic/curious-phenomenon-re-acharya-s
Curious Phenomenon which reads as follows:

Quote:
The university where I study/work has a pretty comprehensive library system where you can search not just their holdings, but tap into virtually any database of academic materials in the U.S. and many in other countries as well.

Just for grins I did a search with "Acharya S." as a keyword. It brought up some interesting things, such as:

"Non-identical electronic characters of the internucleotidic phosphates in RNA modulate the chemical reactivity of the phosphodiester bonds." Organic & biomolecular chemistry, 2006 Mar 7; 4(5): 928-41.

However, this article is co-authored by someone called "S. Acharya," a biologist who has no connection to Peter Merola's favorite pseudohistorian; the system merely thinks "Acharya S." and "S. Acharya" are interchangeable.

The system did bring up The Christ Conspiracy and her other book, whatever it was called, on the very last page of the search results. These books aren't held by our university but could be special-ordered.

Nowhere did I find a single academic article or book by Acharya S. beyond the two conspiracy screeds she's known for. Furthermore, the university system is keyed to return book reviews of an author's books under that author's name, even if the review itself is by someone else, and I got nothing, meaning that no one in the academic world has even taken Acharya S. seriously enough even to review her books.

I next did a search under D.M. Murdock, which is believed to be Acharya's real name. I brought up two more Acharya conspiracy screeds and one law review article by a "D.M. Murdock" who turns out to be Daniel Murdock, a law student at the University of Alabama, no connection or relation (I presume) to Merola's historical inspiration.

In short: Acharya S./D.M. Murdock has never written a single thing in the academic realm, and what she has written has never even attracted the slightest bit of attention from anyone in the academic realm. No one in academia has ever cited her work, so far as I can tell.

This should come as a surprise to no one who's familiar with Zeitgeist ideology, but I post it here just to underscore how bizarre the Zeitgeisters' and CT's reliance on her is. If she had really "solved" the riddles of ancient history as she and Merola claim, shouldn't her work have attracted at least one solitary mention in the academic community?

Zeitgeisters will be forced to explain their "no" answer by resort to a conspiracy theory that all of academia, to a man/woman, is "in on it," which is I presume what Merola himself believes. The idiocy of this position is self-evident.

Consider Acharya S. debunked!
Code:
http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/topic/curious-phenomenon-re-acharya-s#post-20211


Now what is interesting about this is that for some reason not finding a single review about Acharya's books in the library catalog should debunk her why? I am kinda curious how exactly "not finding information on her" considered debunkering her. That is like saying "I don't know a damn thing about evolution, so therefore it is debunked." It really is that pathetic.

It's interesting however that his assertion that "Murdock has never written a single thing in the academic realm" is so false it's not even funny. I am guessing they have yet to even find Robert M. Price's review of her book Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection which can be accessed here. This also pretty much debunks his assertion that "what she has written has never even attracted the slightest bit of attention from anyone in the academic realm." I am guessing Kenneth Feder, PhD Professor of Archaeology, Central Connecticut State University doesn't count as a "single person in the academic realm." As far as "no one in academia has ever cited her work," why would that have to even be mentioned? There are thousands of people who are both teachers and active researchers in the realm academia and never even get cited. I believe the percentage of academics in history that cite another persons work is about... 12%, while the majority of work citation is usually based upon books aimed at the layperson (which is where most academics money comes from).

Also I am unsure what he even means by "CT's." Is he seriously suggesting that the field of comparative mythology and astrotheology are "conspiracy theories?" In reality it's interesting that they think because they can't find any good mention of Acharya's work and the work of other credentialed scholars that mean they don't exist. Well, I ask people, both students and professors alike in the field of comparative mythology about Acharya's work, I tend to even let them borrow my copy of Christ in Egypt and they usually have nothing but good things to say other than "it's old news, we've already known this for quite sometime." That is usually the consistent response I get that is only considered half way negative.

It's interesting that they have to assume that I or anyone else is hinged in The Zeitgeist Movement is hinged upon the reliability of D.M. Murdock.

You guy's can formulate your own response but I am pretty sure this post just shows that the user Muertos is inherently dishonest and completely so.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:37 pm 
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First of all, if Acharya S is such an irrelevant amateur then, why are they over at con-sci so OBSESSED with smearing and attacking her and Zeitgeist part 1?

Second, she actually has been cited in books by scholars. For just one example, she's cited in Dr. Robert Price's book The Pre-Nicene New Testament on page 1179.

You had summed it all up correctly at the bottom when you said "Muertos is inherently dishonest."

What library does he work? Neither Muertos nor Edward Winston has ever actually read anything by Acharya S and, she actually has 5 books out right now, which these punks obviously aren't aware of. What have they done? What are their qualifications? What formal training have they had? What credentials have they? Where is their inerrant scholarly masterpiece and by what University Press publisher?

Similar to your thread Acharya and peer reviewed who is going to write a review for her books at a university when it's not part of their course requirements? This would be more relevant at a university where there is a course on astrotheology. There's not, so, this is nothing more than a malicious ad hom attack and smear from un-intellectual cowards such as Muertos and Edward Winston.

As pointed out by atheist David Mills:
Quote:
"...D.M. Murdock/Acharya S, like all authors on controversial subjects, has many critics. But they all share one commonality: They don't know what they're talking about. Murdock understands many languages and has a breadth of knowledge her critics cannot match. This fact irks the uninformed. Having given a fair hearing to some of her online detractors and their "rebuttal" videos, I have detected not only a lack of knowledge on the part of her critics, but also, in some cases, a thinly disguised misogyny."

- David Mills, atheist best-seller author of "Atheist Universe" in his review of Who Was Jesus

Quote:
"Whether or not I am directly quoted in a book of whatever scholarly degree, most of my sources certainly are, as is the information in general that I include in my books.

This sort of credentialism and appeal to authority is simply yet another ad hom logical fallacy to distract away from the material found in my books, which has been dug up from the earliest times to the most modern. Attacking me personally will not make this fascinating information disappear. It will only serve, unfortunately, to keep people ignorant of these highly interesting facts of comparative religion and mythology.

When the academic world catches up to the information presented in my books, we may see something worthwhile happen. Until then, they are not exploring the full picture."

- Acharya S

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:20 pm 
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Looks like these two idiots just got de-schmucked!

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The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:05 am 
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Some more gems from Conspiracy Science following the whole 220-page source guide:
Quote:
http://conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/220-page-source-guide/
. Here it seems Edward is continuing his very own ignorance...

Quote:
He uses DM Murdock/Acharya S as his primary source for history of comparative religion.
She is a pseudo-historian who isn't considered academic by anyone except her followers, who by the way, love telling people like me that we're sexist, bigots, etc because we dare question her credibility.

More reading:
Code:
http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/topic/curious-phenomenon-re-acharya-s
    http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/topic/why-do-you-even-need-acharya-s
    http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/topic/the-church-of-acharya-s


Trust me, I know by even pointing this out I'm inviting harassment of epic 12-year old proportions.


The statement that he "uses DM Murdock/Acharya S as his primary source for history of comparative mythology" ensues a number question marks over the top of my head. Zeitgeist: The Movie - Part One: The Greatest Story Ever Told doesn't even talk about the history of the field of comparative mythology. It is weird that he would include such an outlandish statement... does he even know that there is a different between the field itself and the history altogether? Apparently not.

The other statement that Murdock "isn't considered an academic by anyone except her followers" is purely an absolute lie. Robert M. Price, Kenneth L. Felder, Robert Eisenman, Barbara G. Walker, Bob Semes, etc... all of them academics and all of them have endorsed Murdock's work in one form or another... and yet at the very same time she "isn't considered an academic by anyone except her followers?" This is either an outright lie or that Edward never even bothers to look at those academics who actually endorse her work to begin with.

I will let those of you filter the links he mentions... but to be honest I am not going to bother with it if it is anything like the other childish comments made about TZM.

One thing I will note is that Murdock is far from being his "primary source." Does he even know the definition of a primary source? Peter uses primary sources like The Book of the Dead, the Pyramid Texts, Plato's Republic, The Saturnalia, Eusebius' Classical History, etc... THESE ARE PRIMARY SOURCES. Edward is confusing the word "primary source" with "primary scholarly source" which is what Murdock most certainly would be.

Quote:
The best example of this is his comparison of Joseph and Jesus, and while there are a lot of similarities, he does lie by changing the language (PDF page 87):

Joseph was of 12 brothers (Gen 42:13), Jesus had 12 disciples (Mt 10:1)

Did you catch that? By saying Joseph "was of" 12 he's creating the number 12 by incorporating Joseph into the group (which he doesn't do with jesus), so if we change both sentences to use the same grammar we get:

Joseph had 11 brothers, Jesus had 12 disciples.

or

Joseph was of 12 brothers, Jesus was of 13 disciples.

Not as exciting and profound is it?


Semantic trickery much? Saying Joseph was of 12 brothers is literally what it means... it means he was apart of the 12. Using linguistic semantics to assume that somehow Joseph is saying that Joseph was the thirteenth is a very dishonest tactic. If you say that you are of 12 brothers, I am going to assume you were probably anywhere between the oldest and the youngest of your 11 brothers... interestingly enough it seems that the ZDebunkers are the only ones who have an objection to this when even modern literature proposes as such which are even "pro-Christian." modern literature proposes as such which are even "pro-Christian." I wonder if it is due to the implication that Zeitgeist suggests and if that's the case... they can just recognize the parallels exist (in which case many Christians and non-Christians do) and just reject the conclusion altogether.

I also find it interesting that Edward doesn't even bother to try and "debunk" what he considers to be "flimsy parallels."

Image

Image

Quote:
He references Jordan Maxwell, notorious liar
If there's anyone that's a bigger liar in comparative religion than Acharya S, it's Jordon Maxwell, who blatantly lies about things such as "Jesus Christ" is Ancient Greek "oily anal sex." He does "God's Sun = God's Son" even more often than Acharya S, at least she tries to be clever with it. I'd give Acharya S the benefit of the doubt long before I'd even consider anything Maxwell had to say. Need I say more?


He lacks a reference to these assessment and while I will admit that Jordan Maxwell isn't exactly the best of persons to go to information on religion, this is basically engaging in the Genetic Fallacy, which he is basically attacking the character of the sources, instead of the validity of the source. Also what is up with this "God's Sun = God's Son" ordeal? Is he seriously suggesting that Jordan and Acharya are trying to argue that there is some kind of Philological link to it? If that's the case then I must call into question this entire article and whether or not even consulted the sources. Even in a chapter called "Etymology Tells the Story" in The Christ Conspiracy no such argument is given and neither does Maxwell give such an argument (I may not have heard it but since he lacks a source I am not taking this one serious).

Quote:
Still playing with God's Sun = God's Son
On PDF page 66 we have the same old stuff "Jesus is the sun, the 'Sun of God,'" which is essentially suggesting that Sun of God and Son of God have a connection, when outside of some Indo-European languages, it doesn't. As I said previously:

What does "sun of god" imply other than "son = sun"? Yeah, I get it, Jesus is supposed to be the sun just as the aforementioned gods, but since when does that create grammatical possession for god? They are gods, aren't they? So wouldn't it be "sun god" not "sun of god" unless you were trying to explicitly make that connection.

It doesn't work out so well if you try and think about it at all.


So Edward feels the need to set up a strawman attack on a series of word puns? I really must ask as to whether Edward is pretending to be non-Christian just to pass himself off as being objective because I have only seen Christians attack this. Suffice it to say this is mainly garbage to be honest... he doesn't deal with the sources, tries to set up strawman fallacies which literally fail under the slightest bit of scrutiny, blatant ad hominem's one could spot a mile away and genetic fallacies that would a Christian Apologist like J.P. Holding blush. I will let you guy's deal with the other links and the rest of the article I may have missed on points... but I believe I will sum up by saying that this entire article entry is pure garbage.

P.S. Also, please shed some light on what he means that her followers "love telling people like me that we're sexist, bigots, etc because we dare question her credibility?"


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:23 am 
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Edward Winston and his minions are no different than the lunatic cult of keith trash & chris white spreading their Christian fundy crap to shore up their faith at all costs. What's Edward's excuse - he claims to be an atheist? Little does Ed know that he is a complete embarrassment to atheists everywhere. He has obviously never read this thread exposing him and debunking practically everything he THINKS he has "debunked."

Edward still has no clue about this response in the FAQ's from long ago - before Edward even created his website:
The Son of God is the Sun of God

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:23 am 
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Yet again, more gems from Conspiracy Science about Acharya S, and Zeitgeist.

Code:
http://muertos.blog.com/2010/11/12/herding-cats-how-and-why-conspiracy-theorists-are-wrong-about-experts-and-academicians/


Quote:
First, the groundwork. Conspiracy theorists and fringe believers generally think that academia and the world of experts is a small, close-knit, elitist club where an “official” orthodoxy is rigidly enforced and extreme peer pressure maintains order. In this ivory tower that conspiracy theorists think academicians live in, the slightest deviation from the “official line” is a career-destroying move for any expert. He or she will be blacklisted, unable to publish, drummed out of faculty departments and brutally ridiculed by his or her former colleagues. In the world of conspiracy theorists and fringe believers, this orthodoxy holds fast even if the facts it is based on are demonstrably false—comparisons are often drawn to the geocentric view of astronomy that Copernicus challenged in the sixteenth century, or the (actually incorrect) assertion that “before Columbus, everyone thought the world was flat.”


I must say opening the article with a derogatory term without even knowing that any criminal investigator investigating a crime scene could be called a conspiracy theorist. But I won't go into that too much, however the idea and notion that he puts forth that this is a view that is utterly wrong is only half right. While his absurd attempt to try and get people to think about it as a conspiracy, this is not how I view the academic view... however their are modern examples of ridicule. Those anthropologists who decided to say that the beginning of the human race was in Africa instead of Eastern Asia were both ridiculed and even ostracized from the academic community, their was even a medical doctor named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis, who during his career realized that if surgeons washed their hands before delivering children they would not transmit diseases and thus no longer cause their woman giving birth to die of disease transference. He was committed to an insane asylum for such a postulation along with anyone else until Louis Pasteur proved such people were correct. Hell even Alfred Wegener was laughed at and ridiculed till the day of his death and even the Big Bang Theory was a name that was first used to ridicule the idea of space expansion as how the universe and time came to be.

To be honest, there is no need to postulate a conspiracy in the academic community; it is much more reasonable to deduce that academics can have an underlying prejudice to a hypothesis or notion that don't like due to ingrained psychological ego issues, such as studying a field for all their life and then someone coming by that makes everything they studied and advanced seem completely useless. Most people don't want to believe they spent their entire life time studying something that was to make their understand obsolete, even it even took Hawking almost 30 years to admit defeat of his notion of black holes swallowing up information and destroying it was nonsensical.

Quote:
Furthermore, not only is the research of academicians not intended to reinforce any sort of “official line” on anything, but most of them activelyseek to expand the boundaries of their field in new and previously undiscovered directions. After all, being the pioneer of a new line of study ensures academic immortality. Einstein is famous, and justly so, for being the first physicist to describe relativity. Everyone’s heard of Maynard Keynes because he pioneered a new type of economics. Doing something new, different and revolutionary is every academician’s dream. They constantly seek new avenues of inquiry in all fields from science to sociology. Closing yourself off to new ideas is the kiss of death for an academician.


This depends on the field of academia you are trying to put forth. Some fields of study never even get along with each other and quite often one side ends up attacking the other even though the field they are attacking turns out to be pretty much in agreement with their field. The field of New Testament Study on Christian Origins and that of Comparative Mythology as concerns Christian Mythology and it's Pagan adherents is a prime example. Pretty everyone world wide in this field of study agrees that the early Christian Movement borrowed the attributes of other Pagan/Heathen deities and attributed it to their savior in an attempt to easily gain converts. This is the same with Judaism (albeit a more natural inclination and not so much obvious borrowing). What is interesting is that while NTSoCO actually agrees with the field of Comparative Religion that they drew their Christology from surrounding philosophies and religious doctrine, they seem to scorn the field of Comparative Mythology, even though those of CM in fact do agree that a historical Jesus existed and never even bothered to question his existence... hell many in this field of study are Christian and they still hold their faith.

So no, this is not always the case and to pretend it is, is literally trying to claim a view that Academia holds absolute skepticism and people who don't do this are automatically killed off is a fantasy view and nothing less makes this rose colored view any less real.

Now that we have worked that out, now its time to do with his interesting notions about Murdock.

Quote:
“Acharya S.” is the pen name of one D.M. Murdock, an author from Seattle whose claim to fame is the advancement of the “Christ myth theory:” basically the idea that Jesus never existed and Christianity is a hoax constructed by ancient political and religious leaders from various pagan practices, especially sun worship. Murdock first advanced her theory in a 1999 self-published book The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold, which she has followed up with numerous books since then which all harp on the same theory. Murdock/Acharya is well known to conspiracy theorists. Her views on the supposed nonexistence of Christ were a cornerstone of Peter Joseph Merola’s 2007 conspiracy theorist film Zeitgeist: The Movie, which itself spawned the Zeitgeist Movement, a movement whose main (but not officially acknowledged) goal is the dissemination of conspiracy theories.


First off this view is a complete strawman on the basis of her notion. She certainly does say that some political and religious leaders may have adopted Christianity and may have helped it become more popular for means of social and political control (such as Vespasian possibly giving Christian scribes more access to the Library of Alexandria), but if I am not mistaken she very much takes the position that Christian was A PRODUCT OF IT'S PLACE AND TIME.

Secondly, the book is not self-published... to suggest as such as asinine.

Third, the statement that she is well known to conspiracy theorists to me is just making a statement saying that "oh she is well known by these groups of people that must make her bat-shit crazy." It has literally no relevance to her work, nor does it constitute to anything other than guilt by association.

Fourth, the idea that Jesus Christ doesn't exist isn't a cornerstone of Zeitgeist: The Movie nor does the film rise and fall on the existence of nonexistence of Jesus and to suggest as such is nothing more than a strawman fallacy. Three logical fallacies within the exact same paragraph, not doing so well now are we?

Finally, the source for the statement that "the Zeitgeist Movement, a movement whose main (but not officially acknowledged) goal is the dissemination of conspiracy theories," is his own blog. His own blog which can be found here has no actual citation and the argumentation in and of itself does not advance the notion and/or idea that the Zeitgeist Movement's prime directive is to promote conspiracy theories. Instead he is simply taking issue with #6 of the Zeitgeist Movement knowledge base. The citation has no relevance to the claim to begin with so thus it is an invalid claim. I have even told Muertos this in a lengthy online comment discussion where he kept insisting that they were by ignoring everything I said to him and just repeating himself. Just look at the first comment that is his and look at my responses and see how doesn't even address anything I just said.

Quote:
Murdock is not really an academic in the classic sense. She holds no advanced degrees. She has a bachelor’s degree in classics from Franklin & Marshall College in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and attended for a year an archaeological institute in Greece. As she passionately espouses on her website, she believes these credentials are sufficient to qualify her to rewrite the history of Judeo-Christian civilization. (In fact, at the start of her passionate defense of her own credentials, she charges that any attempt to question her work based on her lack of them is an “ad hominem attack.” Conspiracy theorists love the words ad hominem).


Let's check out some problems with this shall we?

1. The statement that she "attended for a year an archeological institute in Greece" is not actually on the source that he is citing.

2. The source on the wikipedia page that he is getting this from (and obviously inserting something that doesn't even exist on there in the first place) actually has another source (which is source 5) which links to her own website, actually has it no where on her page that she says that "any attempt to question her work based on her lack of them is an "ad hominem attack." However what he doesn't realize that questioning someone's work is not the same as questioning someone's credentials, this is known as Credentialism which is actually apart of the ad hominem fallacy.

Quote:
An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. - http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... minem.html


This being the case, questioning Murdock's work based upon the notion that she doesn't have the correct credentials is in reality the very definition of an ad hominem.

3. The most interesting fact about the source that Muertos is not what he says, it's what he doesn't say. For example, the source says "D.M. Murdock, was classically educated at some of the finest schools, receiving an undergraduate degree in Classics, Greek Civilization, from Franklin & Marshall College, the 17th oldest college in the United States." It's interesting that he doesn't even try to mention this fact. He also omits the list of Professor's Murdock gives:

* ASCSA Director Dr. Steven G. Miller, Director, Nemea Excavations
* Dr. Stella G. Miller-Collett, Associate Director, Nemea Excavations
* Dr. John McK Camp, II, Director, Agora Excavations at Athens
* Dr. Charles K. Williams, II, Director, Corinth Excavations
* Dr. Nancy Bookidis, Assistant Director, Corinth Excavations
* Dr. Frederick A. Cooper, Archaeologist and Architectural Historian, Bassae Excavations
* Dr. Oscar T. Broneer, Director, Isthmia Excavations
* Dr. Joseph W. Shaw, Director, Kommos Excavations
* William B. Dinsmoor, Jr., Archaeologist and Architectural Historian

Why would Muertos leave this out to begin with? It seems to me he is trying to play off Murdock as someone not worth considering since she has no "advanced degrees" which is also a wordplay game saying that "she doesn't even have a Ph.D" which is tantamount to an ad hominem.

4. The notion that Murdock "attended for a year an archaeological institute in Greece" is a complete distortion of what the source says.

Quote:
Acharya S has served as a trench master on archaeological excavations in Corinth, Greece, and Connecticut, USA, as well as a teacher's assistant on the island of Crete.


This is not just a mistaken use of a source, he is using a wikipedia article that doesn't have this type of wording nor the source that the wiki article is using. Muertos is being purely deceptive and if this is an example of how he does work in his academic field, he must be a laughing stock at that and if not completely rejected because of his misuse of a source, which is ironic because he apparently calls it "malpractice" to do such a thing.

5. Finally, to use the term "conspiracy theorists love the word ad hominem" basically means that it's irrelevant if someone if the argument is an ad hominem; if it is used against a conspiracy theorist it is alright. This is not only dishonest but such a practice that would be used in the field off academia could very will cause him his job, which I seriously he even has given the very fact of this article.

Quote:
Murdock believes Christ never existed and that evil power-hungry political and religious leaders thought him up, cribbing from Egyptian sun myths, the life of Buddha and other sources. She gets there, as all pseudohistorians do, by cherry-picking sources and drawing very strained interpretations of ancient history and astronomy. Her books are not peer-reviewed. They are self-published through her own press, Stellar House Publishing. So far as I can tell, Stellar House Publishing publishes no other authors other than Murdock. Searching on JSTOR and other academic databases at my university, I couldn’t even find a review of any of Murdock’s books—not even to denounce them. The legitimate academic community doesn’t even care enough about Murdock to waste a page in some journal refuting her.


Besides the notion that "Murdock believes Christ never existed" everything else about her position is a strawman. He also makes a claim but fails to back it with any source, so therefore I need not even argue against it other than the fact that he needs to add a source I am going to take that claim seriously. The idea that her books are not peer-reviewed his ignoring the very fact that they have (Suns of God, Who was Jesus? and the Christ Conspiracy) received very glowing reviews from Robert M. Price, Robert Eisenman and others in the fields that do have Ph.D's, the idea that you need people with a Ph.D to review it (even though it is) and the idea that books need to go through a process of peer review in order for anyone to take it seriously is nothing more than another ad hominem attack. Besides, even if her work isn't peer reviewed, Who Was Jesus and Christ in Egypt have work that is being and has been through the peer review process. CC and SoG are not published by her own press, only WWJ, CiE and the Gospel According to Acharya S are. Also the notion that Stellar House Publishing only publisher's her own books is a mistake, Stellar House Publishing has a new work by Barbara Walker that was published.

I wonder what the hell he is talking about with JSTOR... to my knowledge they only carry peer-reviewed journal's, not journal's for academic book reviews, there are others for that... so to say that because it isn't found in JSTOR is very much deceptive meaning as to the very purpose of JSTOR to begin with. However, the very fact that I told him this and people have probably told him this numerous times to begin with that their are credentials academics in the relevant fields who do praise her work doesn't stop him from stating that the "legitimate academic community doesn’t even care enough about Murdock to waste a page in some journal refuting her," a statement that is as false as saying the moon is made up of cheese.

Quote:
Yet, there are thousands of historians, archaeologists and researchers out there with advanced degrees in classics, ancient history, archaeology, and religious studies—degrees that Murdock does not have—and each and every one of them would love to have something new, cutting-edge and revolutionary to write about. Strangely, not one of them is writing about what Murdock is writing about. No dissertations or research theses are being churned out of the Notre Dame or Berkeley history departments that even remotely comport with Murdock’s theories. With as desperate as academics are for cutting-edge stuff, you’d think that one of them would have found her by now, or would at least be nibbling at the edges of the body of work she claims to have interpreted correctly. But they aren’t. Why? Because to advance the “Christ conspiracy” theory is academic malpractice. Why is it malpractice? Because it isn’t true.


And thus we reached the cross-road without understanding the very fact of what I said earlier about other fields of study not getting along? The majority of people I talk to in the field of comparative mythology have basically that what Murdock is saying is just old news, nothing big since they have known it for quite sometime that the Jesus Mythology is based on earlier gods. While the field of New Testament Scholarship has been reduced to using a reconstruction method for an historical Jesus, the idea and notion that there was no historical Jesus does have some validity to it and many honest New Testament historians will agree, however there is a reason I went through these two fields of study; is basically to show that he is ignorant of the field he is trying to claim an authority on. However, Murdock has only been putting these ideas out for about 11 years now, it takes a lot longer to become so well known that dissertations we made on it. Hell, it took till 30 years after James Goerge Frazer's death for academics to start doing dissertations on his own work.

Also he is apparently not understanding that the field of study of religion along with that of the study of the history of religion is completely different from that of other fields, especially when you have more people who believe in Christianity studying the field than the whole Secular Atheist Skeptical Community world wide. Sociological implications deem it necessary to maintain ones faith and many times that involves continuing a field of study that has outlived it's usefulness. Hector Avalos wrote a great book on this and of Muertos is as well read as he claims to be he would understand the arguments and realize that the field of Christian study is not as clear cut and dry as let's say, the study of evolutionary biology on taxonomic variant traits.

So his entire paragraph is nothing more than an ad hominem of silence, basically saying that "I don't hear anything from the academic community, so therefore I am justified in what i say," without realizing that argument is the very definition of an ad hominem.

Quote:
Murdock and the Zeitgeist conspiracy theorists would have you believe that the reason legitimate academia pays no attention to her is because her theories are “too radical” and violate the orthodoxy of academic study in ancient history, or because it’s somehow “taboo” to claim that Christ never existed or isn’t holy. One need not remind Murdock and the Zeitgeisters that there are more than just Christians researching ancient history. Learned universities in the Islamic world and in Asia employ historians, archaeologists and researchers every bit as competent as the ones in the West. Strangely those people—who, being Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Shintos or atheists, certainly have no personal or professional attachment to the idea of Christ—haven’t picked up on Murdock’s theories either.


It is interesting that he deems it necessary that Zeitgeist Part one should be deemed a conspiracy theory, when in reality such is the claim of a complete absurdity and I won't even bother refuting the notion to begin with here.

I however hold no allusion to the idea that Jesus was not an historical character, he may very well have been. Asking if their was an historical Jesus is like asking if there is a plumber in new york named bob. The question is not whether an historical Jesus exists, but whether or not a historical Jesus, who had some centralized foundation to the Christian Movement (either intended or not intended, which is something that has been hotly debated) exists. The very fact that New Testament Historians on Christian Origins have been reduced to reconstructing Jesus from his own time and culture shows that historians are assuming apriori that such a figure exists ahead of time. It means they have no basis for it other than initializing Occam's Razor, this may not be the case 100 years from now, or even 50 years from now, but the idea that nobody in the field finds the assertion that there was no historical Jesus as an absurd position is not only false, but it is a statement made as an absolute fact as ignorant.

There is no need for me to posit some kind of conspiracy, all I have to say is that Muertos is ignorant of the subject and field for which he tries so desperately to assert an authority on the subject; yet using so many logical fallacies he would have been kicked out of his logic class within the field five minutes of his professor reading this blog if he put up as an essay.

The problem however that the statement of these learned universities in the East haven't picked up on it don't really know for a fact that many of these universities that hold people of faith's like Muslim's, Buddhists and Hindu's tend to be very much ignorant of the obvious demographics one can assume just based on logic alone. How many Universities in India, China, Japan have classes on Christian Origins, what is the demographic of the people who study in those countries? Most of the Eastern countries have people who are heavily immersed in their own religion to begin with; on many occasions that seems to conform to anything but Christian. These people would go on to become professor's and scholars of their own religions, hell if I was raised Muslim, I would have more of an interest in the Islamic Mythos than the Christian Mythos. The same is with those Atheists that grew out of their religion... people tend to study and understand it. On this note I would need to ask Muertos the demographics on how many Muslim Historians there are on the Christian religion before he starts making a wide acclaimed assertions that seems to be based on the assumption that these people would even hold a large number in the field Murdock is trying to reach.

Basically this is just the cream of the crop of what I just touched upon and their are more things to break apart... but the rest of it is just purely statements based on ignorance, ad hominem's of silence, and even more statements of repeating his largely ignorant demographic statement for which he does not cite any source for his demographic. Largely his entire acclaimed statement and his article on Acharya is just flat out wrong and simply is an appeal to consensus and makes factually inaccurate statements that would have caused him to fail his entire class and forced to take class on logic and methodology all over again.

You guy's can pick the rest apart I am done with this one.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:01 am 
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Hercules

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:19 pm
Posts: 58
HAIL FERSEUS!! Lord of the typo/scan glitch :mrgreen:

and to think if it wasn't for Edward (if it be lawful to call him such) i might never have known of this awesome new deity (Ferseus i mean, not Edward) :lol:

(oh and PS: nice to be here)


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:22 pm 
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This has been sent to me. It's a blog posted November 13, 2010 by Rook Hawkins/Thomas Verenna endorsing a blog by 'muertos,' Edward Winston's buddy from the Conspiracy Science (con-sci) website that has been exposed throughout this very thread. Yes, the same one mentioned by our friend, 'Voice of Reason' just above.

So, Rook/Tom has officially joined with the ATHEIST PATHOLOGICAL LIARS at con-sci spreading more SMEARS about Acharya S and her work. Acharya S, still to this very day has never done a damn thing to any of those punks. Search her website at Stellar Housepublishing.com or Truthbeknown.com and she makes no mention of him anywhere. And some people still wonder why we are appalled at these malicious smears? Others in academia, however, are catching-on by seeing what Rook is really about. He is ruining his own credibility. :lol:

Quote:
A Great Blog Post Debunking Zeitgeist and ‘Zeitgeist Mythicism’
Code:
http://tomverenna.wordpress.com/2010/11/13/a-great-blog-post-debunking-zeitgeist-and-zeitgeist-mythicism/

Rook says: "I found this blog post to be exceptionally well-written and had to share it with my readers. Since I have been on what is becoming more and more like a campaign against such rubbish, I have had the pleasure of some excellent conversations with colleagues on the subject of pseudoscience and its continued success in the social world of our contemporary age. The biggest drawback to real science/history is that conspiracy theories propose faux ideas about Academia and this blog article not only shreds such perceptions, it tears into Dorothy Murdock’s books and credibility. Here is an excerpt from Part 1 (aptly named ‘How Academia Really Works’):....."

Here's a blog that shows Rook for what he really is:

"Thomas Verenna is a lying idiot"
http://thomasverenna.blogspot.com

I guess we need to compile all the smears about Acharya S and her work by Rook Hawkins/Thomas Verenna at Rookwatch

Rook Hawkins/Thomas Verenna has ruined his own credibility with all the smears he has spread about Acharya S and her work - even though he's never read it. He is constantly advertising what he thinks is her real name, which has been addressed in the FAQ's: Why does Acharya S use a pen name?. Rook either doesn't realize that she has serious security issues or he just doesn't care. Either way, it's extremely irresponsible and dangerous and he WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

Rook is now well known as another pathological liar who is an embarrassment to all atheists and freethinkers everywhere.

_________________
2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:51 pm 
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Dionysus

Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:56 pm
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Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
This has been sent to me. It's a blog posted November 13, 2010 by Rook Hawkins/Thomas Verenna endorsing a blog by 'muertos,' Edward Winston's buddy from the Conspiracy Science (con-sci) website that has been exposed throughout this very thread. Yes, the same one mentioned by our friend, 'Voice of Reason' just above.

So, Rook/Tom has officially joined with the ATHEIST PATHOLOGICAL LIARS at con-sci spreading more SMEARS about Acharya S and her work. Acharya S, still to this very day has never done a damn thing to any of those punks. Search her website at Stellar Housepublishing.com or Truthbeknown.com and she makes no mention of him anywhere. And some people still wonder why we are appalled at these malicious smears? Others in academia, however, are catching-on by seeing what Rook is really about. He is ruining his own credibility. :lol:

Quote:
A Great Blog Post Debunking Zeitgeist and ‘Zeitgeist Mythicism’
Code:
http://tomverenna.wordpress.com/2010/11/13/a-great-blog-post-debunking-zeitgeist-and-zeitgeist-mythicism/

Rook says: "I found this blog post to be exceptionally well-written and had to share it with my readers. Since I have been on what is becoming more and more like a campaign against such rubbish, I have had the pleasure of some excellent conversations with colleagues on the subject of pseudoscience and its continued success in the social world of our contemporary age. The biggest drawback to real science/history is that conspiracy theories propose faux ideas about Academia and this blog article not only shreds such perceptions, it tears into Dorothy Murdock’s books and credibility. Here is an excerpt from Part 1 (aptly named ‘How Academia Really Works’):....."

Here's a blog that shows Rook for what he really is:

"Thomas Verenna is a lying idiot"
http://thomasverenna.blogspot.com

I guess we need to compile all the smears about Acharya S and her work by Rook Hawkins/Thomas Verenna at Rookwatch

Rook Hawkins/Thomas Verenna has ruined his own credibility with all the smears he has spread about Acharya S and her work - even though he's never read it. He is constantly advertising what he thinks is her real name, which has been addressed in the FAQ's: Why does Acharya S use a pen name?. Rook either doesn't realize that she has serious security issues or he just doesn't care. Either way, it's extremely irresponsible and dangerous and he WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

Rook is now well known as another pathological liar who is an embarrassment to all atheists and freethinkers everywhere.


I posted a comment in that link to my thread post showing that Muertos engages in long pedantic pseudointellectual leaps of logic.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 9:30 pm 
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Dionysus

Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:56 pm
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Wow, he removed my comment. Looks like Tom engages in censorship. Not only that I found out he banned me from posting.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:46 pm 
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Thor

Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:48 pm
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One thing that has, for me, cast serious doubts on the mythicist position is the relationship between Jesus Christ and the Pharisees, which I do not see paralleled elsewhere:

I quote from Douglas Reed's "The Controversy of Zion": http://knud.eriksen.adr.dk/Controversybook/index.htm


Quote:
THE MAN FROM GALILEE



When Jesus was born the vibrant expectation that a marvellous being was about to appear was general among the Judeans. They longed for such proof that Jehovah intended to keep the Covenant with his chosen people, and the scribes, reacting to the pressure of this popular longing, gradually had introduced into the scriptures the idea of the anointed one, the Messiah, who would come to fulfil his bargain.

The Targams, the rabbinical commentaries on the Law, said: "How beautiful he is, the Messiah king who shall arise from the house of Judah. He will gird up his loins and advance to do battle with his enemies and many kings shall be slain".

This passage shows what the Judeans had been led to expect. They awaited a militant, avenging Messiah (in the tradition of "all the firstborn of Egypt" and the destruction of Babylon) who would break Judah's enemies "with a rod of iron" and "dash them in pieces like a potter's vase"; who would bring them empire of this world and the literal fulfilment of the tribal Law; for this was what generations of Pharisees and Levites had foretold.

The idea of a lowly Messiah who would say "love your enemies" and be "despised and rejected of men, a man of sorrows" was not present in the public mind at all and would have been "despised and rejected", had any called attention to these words of Isaiah (which only gained significance after Jesus had lived and died).

Yet the being who appeared, though he was lowly and taught love, apparently claimed to be this Messiah and was by many so acclaimed!

In few words he swept aside the entire mass of racial politics, which the ruling sect had heaped on the earlier, moral law, and like an excavator revealed again what had been buried. The Pharisees at once recognized a most dangerous "prophet and dreamer of dreams".

The fact that he found so large a following among the Judeans shows that, even if the mass of the people wanted a militant, nationalist Messiah who would liberate them from the Romans, many among them must subconsciously have realised that their true captivity was of the spirit and of the Pharisees, more than of the Romans. Nevertheless, the mass responded mechanically to the Pharisaic politicians' charge that the man was a blasphemer and bogus Messiah.

By this response they bequeathed to all future generations of Jews a tormenting doubt, no less insistent because it must not be uttered (for the name Jesus may not even be mentioned in a pious Jewish home): Did the Messiah appear, only to be rejected by the Jews, and if so, what is their future, under The Law?

What manner of man was this? Another paradox in the story of Zion is that in our generation Christian divines and theologians often insist that "Jesus was a Jew", whereas the Judaist elders refuse to allow this (those Zionist rabbis who occasionally tell political or "interfaith" audiences that Jesus was a Jew are not

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true exceptions to this rule; they would not make the statement among Jews and seek to produce an effect among their non-Jewish listeners, for political reasons). *

This public assertion, "Jesus was a Jew", is always used in our century for political purposes. It is often employed to quell objections to the Zionist influence in international politics or to the Zionist invasion of Palestine, the suggestion being that, as Jesus was a Jew, none ought to object to anything purporting to be done in the name of Jews. The irrelevance is obvious, but mobs are moved by such phrases, and the paradoxical result, once again, is that a statement, most offensive to literal Jews, is most frequently made by non-Jewish politicians and ecclesiastics who seek Jewish favour.

The English abbreviation, "Jew", is recent and does not correspond to anything denoted by the Aramaic, Greek or Roman terms for "Judahite" or "Judean", which were in use during the lifetime of Jesus. In fact, the English noun "Jew" cannot be defined (so that dictionaries, which are scrupulously careful about all other words, are reduced to such obvious absurdities as "A person of Hebrew race"); and the Zionist state has no legal definition of the term (which is natural, because the Torah, which is the Law, exacts pure Judahite descent, and a person of this lineage is hardly to be found in the entire world).

If the statement, "Jesus was a Jew", has meaning therefore, it must apply to the conditions prevailing in his time. In that case it would mean one of three things, or all of them: that Jesus was of the tribe of Judah (therefore Judahite); that he was of Judean domicile (and therefore Judean); that he was religiously "a Jew", if any religion denoted by that term existed in his time.

Race, residence, religion, then.

This book is not the place to argue the question of Jesus's racial descent, and the surprising thing is that Christian divines allow themselves some of the statements which they make. The reader should form his own opinion, if he desires to have one in this question.

The genealogy of Mary is not given in the New Testament, but three passages might imply that she was of Davidic descent; St. Matthew and St. Luke trace the descent of Joseph from David and Judah, but Joseph was not the blood father of Jesus. The Judaist authorities discredit all these references to descent, holding that they were inserted to bring the narrative into line with prophecy.

As to residence, St. John states that Jesus was born at Bethlehem in Judea through the chance that his mother had to go there from Galilee to register; the

* Rabbi Stephen Wise, the leading Zionist organizer in the United States during the 1910-1950 period, used this phrase for the obvious political motive, of confusing non-Jewish hearers. Speaking to such an "inter-faith" meeting at the Carnegie Hall at Christmastide 1925, he stated "Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian" (Christianity was born with the death of Jesus).

For this he was excommunicated by the Orthodox Rabbis Society of the United States, but a Christian Ministers Association "hailed me as a brother". Rabbi Wise adds the characteristic comment: "I know not which was more hurtful, the acceptance of me as a brother and welcoming me into the Christian fold, or the violent diatribe of the rabbis".

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Judaist authorities, again, hold that this was inserted to make the account agree with Micah's prophecy that "a ruler" would "come out of Bethlehem".

The Jewish Encyclopaedia insists that Nazareth was Jesus's native town, and indeed, general agreement exists that he was a Galilean, whatever the chance of his actual birthplace. Galilee, where nearly all his life was spent, was politically entirely separate from Judea, under its own Roman tetrarch, and stood to Judea in the relationship of "a foreign country" (Graetz). Marriage between a Judean and a Galilean was fobidden and even before Jesus's birth all Judeans living in Galilee had been forced by Simon Tharsi, one of the Maccabean princes, to migrate to Judah.

Thus, the Gali1eans were racially and politically distinct from the Judeans.

Was this Galilean, religiously, what might today be called "a Jew"? The Judaist authorities, of course, deny that most strenuously of all; the statement, often heard from the platform and pulpit, might cause a riot in the synagogue.

It is difficult to see what responsible public men can mean when they use the phrase. There was in the time of Jesus no "Jewish" (or even Judahite or Judaist or Judean) religion. There was Jehovahism, and there were the various sects, Pharisees, Sadducees and Essenes, which disputed violently between themselves and contended, around the temple, for power over the people. They were not only sects, but also political parties, and the most powerful of them were the Pharisees with their "oral traditions" of what God had said to Moses.

If today the Zionists are "the Jews" (and this is the claim accepted by all great Western nations), then the party which in Judea in the time of Jesus corresponded to the Zionists was that of the Pharisees. Jesus brought the whole weight of his attack to bear on these Pharisees. He also rebuked the Sadducees and the scribes, but the Gospels show that he held the Pharisees to be the foe of God and man and that he used an especial scarifying scorn towards them. The things which he singled out for attack, in them and in their creed, are the very things which today's Zionists claim to be the identifying features of Jews, Jewishness and Judaism.

Religiously, Jesus seems beyond doubt to have been the opposite and adversary of all that which would make a literal Jew today or would have made a literal Pharisee then.

None can say with certainty who or what he was, and these suggestive statements by non-Jewish politicians ring as false as the derisive and mocking lampoons about "the bastard" which circulated in the Jewish ghettoes.

What he did and said is of such transcendental importance that nothing else counts. On a much lesser scale Shakespeare's case is somewhat comparable. The quality of inspiration in his works is clear, so that it is of little account whether he wrote them, or who wrote them if he did not, yet the vain argument goes on.

The carpenter's son from Galilee evidently had no formal schooling: "The Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?"

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What is much more significant, he had known no rabbinical schools or priestly training. His enemies, the Pharisees, testify to that; had he been of their clan or kind they would not have asked, "Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works".

What gives the teaching of this unlettered young man its effect of blinding revelation, the quality of light first discovered, is the black background, of the Levitical Law and the Pharisaic tradition, against which he moved when he went to Judea. Even today the sudden fullness of enlightenment, in the Sermon on the Mount, dazzles the student who has emerged from a critical perusal of the Old Testament; it is as if high noon came at midnight.

The Law, when Jesus came to "fulfil" it, had grown into a huge mass of legislation, stifling and lethal in its immense complexity. The Torah was but the start; heaped on it were all the interpretations and commentaries and rabbinical rulings; the elders, like pious silkworms, span the thread ever further in the effort to catch up in it every conceivable act of man; generations of lawyers had laboured to reach the conclusion that an egg must not be eaten on the Sabbath day if the greater part of it had been laid before a second star was visible in the sky.

Already the Law and all the commentaries needed a library to themselves, and a committee of international jurists, called to give an opinion on it, would have required years to sift the accumulated layers.

The unschooled youth from Galilee reached out a finger and thrust aside the entire mass, revealing at once the truth and the heresy. He reduced "all the Law and the Prophets" to the two commandments, Love God with all thy heart and thy neighbour as thyself.

This was the exposure and condemnation of the basic heresy which the Levites and Pharisees, in the course of centuries, had woven into the Law.

Leviticus contained the injunction, "Love thy neighbour as thyself", but it was governed by the limitation of "neighbour" to fellow-Judeans. Jesus now reinstated the forgotten, earlier tradition, of neighbourly love irrespective of race or creed; this was clearly what he meant by the words, "I am not come to destroy the law, but to fulfil". He made his meaning plain when he added, "Ye have heard that it hath been said . . . hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemy". (The artful objection is sometimes made that the specific commandment, "Hate thine enemy", nowhere appears in the Old Testament. Jesus's meaning was clear; the innumerable injunctions to the murder and massacre of neighbours who were not "neighbours", in which the Old Testament abounds, certainly required hatred and enmity).

This was a direct challenge to The Law as the Pharisees represented it, and Jesus carried the challenge further by deliberately refusing to play the part of the nationalist liberator and conqueror of territory for which the prophecies had cast the Messiah. Probably he could have had a much larger following, and possibly

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the support of the Pharisees, if he had accepted that role.

His rebuke, again, was terse and clear: "My kingdom is not of this world . . . The kingdom of Heaven is within you . . . Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth. . . but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal".

Everything he said, in such simple words as these, was a quiet, but direct challenge to the most powerful men of his time and place, and a blow at the foundations of the creed which the sect had built up in the course of centuries.

What the entire Old Testament taught in hundreds of pages, the Sermon on the Mount confuted in a few words. It opposed love to hatred, mercy to vengeance, charity to malice, neighbourliness to segregation, justice to discrimination, affirmation (or reaffirmation) to denial, and life to death. It began (like the "blessings-or-cursings" chapters of Deuteronomy) with blessings, but there the resemblance ended.

Deuteronomy offered material blessings, in the form of territory, loot and slaughter, in return for strict performance of thousands of "statutes and judgments", some of them enjoining murder. The Sermon on the Mount offered no material rewards, but simply taught that moral behaviour, humility, the effort to do right, mercy, purity, peaceableness and fortitude would be blessed for their own sake and receive spiritual reward.

Deuteronomy followed its "blessings" with "cursings". The Sermon on the Mount made no threats; it did not require that the transgressor be "stoned to death" or "hanged on a tree", or offer absolution for non-observance at the price of washing the hands in the blood of a heifer. The worst that was to befall the sinner was that he was to be "the least in the kingdom of heaven"; and most that the obedient might expect was to be "called great in the kingdom of heaven".

The young Galilean never taught subservience, only an inner humility, and in one direction he was consistently and constantly scornful: in his attack on the Pharisees.

The name, Pharisees, denoted that they "kept away from persons or things impure". The Jewish Encyclopaedia says, "Only in regard to intercourse with the unclean and the unwashed multitude did Jesus differ widely from the Pharisees". Echo may answer, "Only!" This was of course the great cleavage, between the idea of the tribal deity and the idea of the universal god; between the creed of hatred and the teaching of love. The challenge was clear and the Pharisees accepted it at once. They began to bait their traps, in the very manner described by Jeremiah long before: "All my familiars watched for my halting, saying, Peradventure he will be enticed, and we shall prevail against him, and we shall take our revenge on him".

The Pharisees watched him and asked, "Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners" (a penal offence under their Law). He was equally their master in debate and in eluding their baited traps, and answered, swiftly but

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quietly, "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick . . , I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance".

They followed him further and saw his disciples plucking ears of corn to eat on the Sabbath (another offence under the Law), "Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the Sabbath day". They pursued him with such interrogations, always related to the rite, and never to faith or behaviour; "why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders, for they wash not their hands when they eat bread?". "Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophecy of you, saying, this people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" ,

This was the lie direct: The Law, he charged, was not God's law, but the law of the Levites and Pharisees: "the commandments of men"!

From this moment there could be no compromise, for Jesus turned away from the Pharisees and "called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man, but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man".

With these words Jesus cast public scorn on one of the most jealously-guarded of the priestly prerogatives, involving the great mass of dietary laws with the whole ritual of slaughter, draining of blood, rejection of "that which dieth of itself", and so on. All this was undoubtedly a "commandment of man", although attributed to Moses, and strict observance of this dietary ritual was held to be of the highest importance by the Pharisees, Ezekiel (the reader will recall) on being commanded by the Lord to eat excrement "to atone for the iniquities of the people", had pleaded his unfailing observance of the dietary laws and had had his ordeal somewhat mitigated on that account. Even the disciples were apparently so much under the influence of this dietary tradition that they could not understand how "that which cometh out of the mouth" could defile a man, rather than that which went in, and asked for an explanation, remarking that the Pharisees "were offended, after they heard this saying".

The simple truth which Jesus then gave them was abominable heresy to the Pharisees: "Do not ye understand, that what whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: these are the things which defile a man; but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man".

This last remark was another penal offence under the Law and the Pharisees began to gather for the kill. They prepared the famous trick questions: "Then went the Pharisees and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk". The two chief questions were, "To whom shall we render tribute?" and "Who then is my neighbour?" A wrong answer to the first would deliver him to

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punishment by the foreign ruler, Rome. A wrong answer to the second would enable the Pharisees to denounce him to the foreign ruler as an offender against their own Law, and to demand his punishment.

This is the method earlier pictured by Jeremiah and still in use today, in the Twentieth Century. All who have had to do with public debate in our time, know the trick question, carefully prepared beforehand, and the difficulty of answering it on the spur of the moment. Various methods of eluding the trap are known to professional debaters (for instance, to say "No comment", or to reply with another question). To give a complete answer, instead of resorting to such evasions, and in so doing to avoid the trap of incrimination and yet maintain the principle at stake is one of the most difficult things known to man. It demands the highest qualities of quickwittedness, presence of mind and clarity of thought. The answers given by Jesus to these two questions remain for all time the models, which mortal man can only hope to emulate.

"Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?" (the affable tone of honest enquiry can be heard). "But Jesus perceived their wickedness and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? . . . Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. When they heard these words, they marvelled, and left him and went their way".

On the second occasion, "a certain lawyer stood up and tempted him, saying, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" In his answer Jesus again swept aside the great mass of Levitical Law and restated the two essentials: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart . . . and thy neighbour as thyself". Then came the baited trap: "And who is my neighbour?"

What mortal man would have given the answer that Jesus gave? No doubt some mortal men, knowing like Jesus that their lives were at stake, would have said what they believed, for martyrs are by no means rare. But Jesus did much more than that; he disarmed his questioner like an expert swordsman who effortlessly sends his opponent's rapier spinning into the air. He was being enticed to declare himself openly; to say that "the heathen" were also "neighbours", and thus to convict himself of transgressing The Law. In fact he replied in this sense, but in such a way that the interrogator was undone; seldom was a lawyer so confounded.

The Levitical-Pharisaic teaching was that only Judeans were "neighbours", and of all the outcast heathen they especially abominated the Samaritans (for reasons earlier indicated). The mere touch of a Samaritan was defilement and a major "transgression" (this continues true to the present day). The purpose of the question put to him was to lure Jesus into some statement that would qualify him for the major ban; by choosing the Samaritans, of all peoples, for the purpose of his reply, he displayed an audacity, or genius, that was more than human:

He said that a certain man fell among thieves and was left for dead. Then came

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"a priest" and "likewise a Levite" (the usual stinging rebuke to those who sought the chance to put him to death), who "passed by on the other side". Last came "a certain Samaritan", who bound the man's injuries, took him to an inn, and paid for his care: "which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?"

The lawyer, cornered, could not bring himself to pronounce the defiling name "Samaritan"; he said, "He that showed mercy on him" and thereby joined himself (as he probably realized too late) with the condemnation of those for whom he spoke, such as "the priest" and "the Levite". "Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise". In these few words, and without any direct allusion, he made his interrogator destroy, out of his own mouth, the entire racial heresy on which the Law had been raised.

One moderate Judaist critic, Mr. Montefiore, has made the complaint that Jesus made one exception to his rule of "love thine enemies"; he never said a good word for the Pharisees.

Scholars may debate the point. Jesus knew that they would kill him or any man who exposed them. It is true that he especially arraigned the Pharisees, together with the scribes, and plainly saw in them the sect responsible for the perversion of the Law, so that the entire literature of denunciation contains nothing to equal this:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for ye neither go in yourselves neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in . . . ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves ….. ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith. . . ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess . . . ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. . . ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepu1chres of the righteous, and say, if we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have partaken with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers. . ."

Some critics profess to find the last six words surprisingly harsh. However, if they are read in the context of the three sentences which precede them they are seen to be an explicit allusion to his approaching end, made by a man about to die to those who were about to put him to death, and at such a moment hardly any words could be hard enough. (However, even the deadly reproach, "Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers", had a later sequel: "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do".)

The end approached. The "chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders" (the

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Sanhedrin) met under the high priest Caiaphas to concert measures against the man who disputed their authority and their Law. The only Judean among the Galilean disciples, Judas Iscariot, led the "great multitude with swords and staves", sent by the "chief priests and elders of the people", to the garden of Gethsemane and identified the man they sought by the kiss of death.

This Judas deserves a passing glance. He was twice canonized in the Twentieth Century, once in Russia after the Bolshevist Revolution, and again in Germany after the defeat of Hitler, and these two episodes indicated that the sect which was more powerful than Rome, in Jerusalem at the start of our era, was once more supremely powerful in the West in the Twentieth Century.

According to St. Matthew, Judas later hanged himself and if he thus chose the form of death "accursed of God", his deed presumably brought him no happiness. To Zionist historians of Dr. Kastein's school Judas is a sympathetic figure; Dr. Kastein explains that he was a good man who became disappointed with Jesus and therefore "secretly broke" with him (the words "secretly broke" could only occur in Zionist literature).

The Pharisees, who controlled the Sanhedrin, tried Jesus first, before what would today be called "a Jewish court". Possibly "a people's court" would be a more accurate description in today's idiom, for he was "fingered" by an informer, seized by a mob, hailed before a tribunal without legitimate authority, and condemned to death after false witnesses had spoken to trumped-up charges.

However, the "elders", who from this point on took charge of events in exactly the same way as the "advisers" of our century control events, devised the charge which deserved death equally under their "Law" and under the law of the Roman ruler. Under "the Mosaic Law", Jesus had committed blasphemy by claiming to be the Messiah; under the Roman law, he had committed treason by claiming to be the king of the Jews.

The Roman governor, Pilate, tried one device after another, to avoid complying with the demand of these imperious "elders", that the man be put to death.

This Pilate was the prototype of the Twentieth Century British and American politician. He feared the power of the sect in the last resort, more than anything else. His wife urged him to have no truck with the business. He tried, in the politician's way, to pass the responsibility to another, Herod Antipas, whose tetrarchy included Galilee; Herod sent it back to him. Pilate next tried to let Jesus off with a scourging, but the Pharisees insisted on death and threatened to denounce Pilate in Rome: "Thou art not Caesar's friend".

This was the threat to which Pilate yielded, just as one British Governor after another, one United Nations representative after another, yielded in the Twentieth Century to the threat that they would be defamed in London or New York. Evidently Pilate, like these men nineteen centuries later, knew that his home government would disavow or displace him if he refused to do as he was

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bid.

The resemblance between Pilate and some British governors of the period between the First and Second World Wars is strong, (and at least one of these men knew it, for when he telephoned to a powerful Zionist rabbi in New York he jocularly asked, as he relates, that the High Priest Caiaphas be informed that Pontius Pilate was on the line).

Pilate made one other attempt to have the actual deed done by other hands: "Take ye him, and judge him according to your law". With the ease of long experience it was foiled: "it is not lawful for us to put any man to death".

After that he even tried to save Jesus by giving "the people" the choice between pardoning Jesus or Barabbas, the robber and murderer. Presumably Pilate had small hope from this quarter, for "the people" and "the mob" are synonyms and justice and mercy never yet came from a mob, as Pilate would have known; the function of the mob is always to do the will of powerful sects. Thus, "the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus".

In this persuasion of the multitude the sect is equally powerful today.

The longer the time that passes, the more brightly glow the colours of that unique final scene. The scarlet robe, mock sceptre, crown of thorns and derisive pantomime of homage; only Pharisaic minds could have devised that ritual of mockery which today so greatly strengthens the effect of the victim's victory. The road to Calvary, the crucifixion between two thieves: Rome, on that day, did the bidding of the Pharisees, as Persia, five hundred years before, had done that of the Levites.

These Pharisees had taught the people of Judea to expect a Messiah, and now had crucified the first c1aimant. That meant that the Messiah was still to come. According to the Pharisees the Davidic king had yet to appear and claim his empire of the world, and that is still the situation today.

Dr. Kastein, in his survey of Judaism from its start, devotes a chapter to the life of Jesus. After explaining that Jesus was a failure, he dismissed the episode with the characteristic words, "His life and death are our affair".



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:08 pm 
Offline
Hercules

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:19 pm
Posts: 58
blissentia wrote:
One thing that has, for me, cast serious doubts on the mythicist position is the relationship between Jesus Christ and the Pharisees,


isn't that like saying

One thing that has , for me, cast serious doubts on the relationship and subsequent eloping of the dish and the spoon (from hey diddle diddle) is the unlikelyhood of them ever successfully consumating their relationship.

ahab and moby dick, jesus and the pharisees, dish and spoon etc etc

i mean doubt, if you must, that jesus is a literary metaphor for the immanent divine within but then go on to explain how walking on water is not a metaphor.

i think the literalists are saying "jesus is a literal historic fact, prove otherwise"

but i think "hey it's obviously all metaphoric, you prove literalism"

i took "paul's" advice years ago

the letter kills (literalism) but the spirit gives life (mythicist position)

anyways have you read aldous huxley's "perennial philosophy"

wow! i love that book


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