I bought mrs. Acharya's book, Christ in Egypt. The reason was mainly to find ancient literature about Horus. Some evidence that Horus was born from a virgin and so on, like Jesus. I was amazed by the prize offered by Chris White on his site to anyone brings ancient literature, evidence that Horus, Khrishna etc. have similarities to Jesus. Until now, nobody got the prize.
I'm still reading the book but I am not satisfied by the proofs shown in the book. Are there, somewhere in the world, some real texts, inscriptions, anything, which plainly say that Horus (or the other sun gods) had 12 helpers, was born from a virgin, died on a cross etc.
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:24 pm Posts: 4330 Location: 3rd rock from the sun
You must not have the right book because it's all in there along with source citations. Loads of it in its original languages along with images. The only way it gets better is if you go to Egypt for yourself and have someone hold your hand and explain it all to you.
You are asking for an ancient Egyptian encyclopedia laying it all out as a copy of the canonical gospels, which is not a reality and she even spells that out in the book too.
"Again, one does not find the Horus myth as above outlined in an ancient Egyptian encyclopedia, such that the creators of the Jesus story merely scratched out the Egyptian names and inserted the Christian ones."
- Christ in Egypt, page 45
"Some evidence that Horus was born from a virgin and so on, like Jesus."
Evidence like Jesus? Are you serious? There is no evidence for Jesus let alone that he was born of a virgin - how are you going to prove that? Just because it says it in the New Testament doesn't qualify as evidence.
"The Pyramid Texts speak of "the great virgin" (Hwn.t wr.t) three times (682c, 728a, 2002a, cf. 809c)" ...
"In a text in the Abydos Temple of Seti I, Isis herself declares:
"I am the great virgin"
- Christ in Egypt, page 152
"The Egyptian goddess who was equally ‘the Great Virgin’ (hwnt) and ‘Mother of the God’ was the object of the very same praise bestowed upon her successor [Mary, Virgin Mother of Jesus]."
- Dr. Witt, an Egyptologist
* The Pyramid Texts are 4,400 years old.
The point is that the concepts were all there in Egypt long before Christianity. Here are some excerpts from Christ in Egypt in an article titled, Isis is a virgin mother
The issue regarding the Zeitgeist challenge has been addressed long ago in the FAQ's:
"ZEITGEIST, Part 1" Debunked/Refuted? Acharya Responds
"In the first place, I am under no obligation to answer anyone's "challenge." Secondly, the individuals involved in this particular endeavor, along with their followers, have been very impolite and obnoxious, libeling me with all manner of vile epithets and proving themselves entirely unworthy of response. Thirdly, these individuals are biased Christians who are not experts in comparative religion and mythology, know very little about the subject and know almost nothing about my work, but are nonetheless dishonestly presenting themselves as "experts" on me and my work. These are not credible and credentialed individuals upon whose endeavors I need to waste my own time and efforts. I am not inclined to trust the integrity of such dishonest characters who are going against their own religion by bearing false witness against me, which they have repeatedly done with their libelous, slanderous and hateful comments.
Moreover, in reality I have repeatedly addressed these ZG debunkers, in this blog as well as in my video on the subject. Their response has been to slander and libel me further as well as to spend more time demonstrating that they know very little about the subject matter and even less about my work. Again, these are not credible people with integrity. I understand that people whose feelings are hurt by the information I disclose will lash out and grasp anything they can to cling to discredited beliefs, but desperately following such characters who are being mendacious about their credentials and expertise, and who continually slander and libel decent and honest human beings, is really not the answer.
Furthermore, I answered whatever facts among their abundant non-facts and mistruths this so-called challenge may have produced before it was even issued, in my previous books, especially in Suns of God as well as Who Was Jesus? I also have hundreds of articles and other writings on my websites, in my groups and on my forums. These individuals would not know that fact because, even though they dishonestly pretend otherwise, they do not know my work at all.
These individuals need to be challenged themselves to admit to their many mistakes, as well as their vicious campaign of hatred, calumny, slander and libel, which is a mark of a truly low character and which is nothing new but has plagued Christianity from the very beginning. In the meantime, my latest book Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection thoroughly addresses all of the Horus commentary in the ZG movie. I would not expect these individuals to be honest enough to admit that their challenge is met, however. One would hope, nevertheless, that someone in the believing corner has more class, integrity and honesty to deal maturely and with common decency than do these particular individuals. It is frankly appalling and dismaying to consider that there are others who actually give credence to these individuals, but such is religious indoctrination that it creates disturbed and unbalanced people - as we see abundantly all over the internet, unfortunately.
In any event, my book Christ in Egypt is my main response to all criticisms concerning the Horus-Jesus connection in Zeitgeist, and, once it comes out, unless detractors have read it and can offer a mature critique devoid of dishonesty, libel and personal attacks, we should not be concerned with their opinions."
Chris White, Keith Trash and King David8 have absolutely no intention of ever paying up. They are Christian apologists out to shore-up their faith at all costs like most liars for the Lord.
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:17 pm Posts: 2247 Location: Everywhere
Michael, this does come off like another troll thread, hence the abrupt response. Are you seriously looking for answers? And how far have you gotten in the book? Far too often we find Christian or some other apologists coming on here angry because Acharya's work threatens in some way their religious ideology. They aren't looking for answers aside from trying to shore up the faith by any means necessary. And then behind that we also find the occasional atheist skeptic types who are only familiar with basic encyclopedia article information and accepted ideas about mythology, and are likewise interested in shoring up their faith in the usual shallow material that doesn't cover the more indepth realm of scholarship. You have every right to ask whatever question you'd like, but if you present your questions in a trolling manner, as you've started out at the top of the thread, then we have every right to treat you as a troll. So if you're actually serious then please drop the trolling angle and we can proceed with a descent conversation.
_________________ The Jesus Mythicist Creed: The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.
First of all, I like to thank you for your answering me and giving me useful information. I am not a troll as you said. I am an amateur and I like ancient history. I am not a christian and I don't belong to any sect or group or whatever. I've just asked a simple question. I shall read all the book until the end and look to the links you gave me, too. Please forgive my ignorance. Michael.
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:24 pm Posts: 4330 Location: 3rd rock from the sun
Okay, fair enough Michael. I apologize if my post came off too harsh. I thought you were another Christian troll for a moment. I didn't think you were actually reading the book because it's all in there.
I am not aware of any, quote-unquote, "official" version in English that renders that passage as "virgin". It is typically just translated as virgin in an off-the-cuff manner in commentary by scholars, such as the Theological Dictionary cited earlier. The three translations I have read are Faulkner's(my personal favorite), Allen's, and Mercer's(least favorite). All are available on google books. Faulkner has it as "I am the Great Maiden".[click] Allen has it as "The Great Lass".[click] And Mercer has it as "The great damsel".[click]
And this is absolutely fine and absolutely compatible with rendering it as virgin, since...
#1- Every one of these English words has the word virgin listed as one of their synonyms in dictionaries and thesauruses. After all, what do we call it when a "virgin" ship pops it's cherry out at sea? It's MAIDEN voyage.
#2- ALL of the original words tranlated as "virgin" in English by christianity, also have the same multiple definition. Almah, Bethulah, and Parthenos ALL can and have been translated as either virgin OR just a young woman/maiden. Sometimes even referring to women who have already had sex.
So there is no objection that can be levied against the Pyramid Texts on this matter that cannot also be levied at the bible, and that is exactly the point- either way you slice it, the Egyptian religion had it first.
But what corroborates with the fact that "virgin" is the most accurate translation, is the fact that in the Ptolemaic era text "Songs of Isis & Nephthys" dated to around the 4th century BEFORE Christ, requires that the two girls chosen to portray Isis & Nephthys in the performance must be pure virgins. This is also mentioned in Murdock's book.
"12 Faulkner, CDME, 132. A search across many books dealing with Egyptian hieroglyphs, including dictionaries, reveals a trend avoiding reference to the term “virgin,” which nevertheless existed in the Egyptian language. Indeed, there is little doubt that what Faulkner defines as “fair woman” refers to a virgin. Considering the importance of virginity to Egyptians, it seems curious that this word is so difficult to find in the dictionaries. It is possible this trend is based on religious sensitivities raised earlier when previous scholars such as Budge were more forthright regarding this terminology, which treads too near Christian doctrine. For the same reason, it seems, the phrase “virgin birth” is avoided and “parthenogenesis” substituted in its place."
- Christ in Egypt, footnote 12, page 142
"Here we discover in a Christian publication that the Egyptian goddesses Isis, Hathor and Nephthys were commonly called “virgin” in the Late Period (665-323 BCE), meaning that the concept was abundant in worshippers’ minds a few centuries before the common era. As concerns the “Great Virgin” in the Pyramid Texts, the average reader might not realize this fact from reading the various translations, which tend to render the particular term hwn.t not as “virgin” but as “girl,” “damsel” or the increasingly obscure “lass.” For example, Mercer translates PT 389:682c as, “N. is the great mistress (or, damsel),” while PT 412:728a and PT 675:2002a are rendered “the great damsel.”2 Beinlich has Hwn.t as meaning “Mädchen,” which is one German rendering of the English word “virgin,”3 as in the case of the Virgin Mary, who is called “Mädchen Maria” in German, although the phrase “Jungfrau Maria” is more common. In any event, it is evident that both terms can mean “virgin” in precisely the same manner in which the Virgin Mary is considered."
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