Freethought Nation

Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

I like the way it starts, basing its message in terms of natural human development. However, I don't think the ideas it presents are consistent. You have George Carlin talking about the people that "own" the country, and then the video wants to say that we all own the world together.

Who is this "we" they keep referring to? The solutions that videos like this propose either involve anarchical tactics or the wholesale redesign of society by idealistic engineers. I would say that neither of those types of approaches is based on natural social development.

There is no mention of the fact that social planning has been demonized publicly but implemented privately by multinational corporate interests. Social evolution has turned people into dependent consumers. You might as well talk about freeing domesticated farm animals in the feed lots. I'm exaggerating, but I don't feel that this video is proposing realistic solutions.

I finally got through the 2 hours and 40 minutes. I'm not sure what to think just yet to be honest. I may have to watch it again at some point.

I guess I was expecting something fresh and new since it was called "movie forward." It seemed like a 2 hour 40 minute revised version that combined the Addendum with part 3 of the original Zeitgeist to me. I have to wonder what some die hard Zeitgeist Movement members think of it.

On a side note, I will never fully understand the claim that the movement has nothing to do with the movies. They cannot possibly be thinking that through. Here's a thread about that issue: What's up with the Zeitgeist Movement? By doing that they are ruining what made Zeitgeist popular in the first place. There simply would exist no Zeitgeist movement at all without the original movie going viral online with over 100 million views worldwide in over 30 languages.

Now, they do everything they can to pretend ZG part 1 on religion never existed when it clearly got loads of attention. It seems the ZG movement has been hi-jacked to me. TZGM has ignored our new mythicist position when one would think it would fit perfectly into the future of the ZG movement. And that's a sort of slap in the face to Acharya S (and the rest of us) after all the hard work she has put into defending ZG1 and continuing to substantiate the claims - such as writing the New Zeitgeist Part 1 Sourcebook (2010), as for just one example. They try to ignore or omit religion altogether, which is not reality and precisely why we're not part of, or have anything to do with the ZG movement. However, I still wish them all the best success possible.

_________________
2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube

I haven't gotten past the second half yet, but all in good time. I've been swamped with a move and haven't had the time. I am however very close to Venus Florida now however.



Let's think about this for a minute. What changed between the release of ZG the movie and ZG Addendum? Well for one thing Fresco and Meadows contacted Joseph and the Venus Project came into the picture. I don't know what the exact circumstances were of course, but there was a distinct sense of wanting to back way off of the part 1 on religion and astrotheology material after that. Fresco is merely a few towns away from me now and I would like to eventually have conversation with him sometime about part 1 and what his thoughts are on all of it. They have tours at the Venus facility.

Fresco seems like an intelligent guy to me and I assume that he agrees with the content. He must have because ZG part 1 inspired him to contact PJ. I think it's just a political move to try and not exclude Christian types and others from joining the movement. But I've already argued with ZG members here and at their forums about how dishonest it is to try and hide things like that from everyone. Screw'em, why not just to stick to their guns and be raw about the whole thing and stand behind all of the movies and all of the content.

Oh, let's go ahead and make a loud call for an end to the global monetary system - prophecy it's imminent collapse - but let's be careful not to step on any toes concerning everyone's religions being based on astrotheological mystical concepts about the year and the Great Year and so on...

I need to get through the rest of the movie over the next few days just to see how the ending hits me this time around.

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

The Zeitgeist Movement is about about making a sustainable social world through a resource based economy. In fact, the purpose of TZM was right at the end of Addendum. Sure Zeitgeist: The Movie made it possible for the movement to exist and I will give them that. However the movement is not about 9/11 conspiracies nor is it about federal reserve banking. I have no problem studying part 1 as that is what I have been doing for the past year and a half. However I do that as something separate from the films, I will say something about the film to a few members and some agree while others don't with it. Just like they agree or disagree with the film. The point is, is that if we end up promoting the first part of the first film then as if it is apart of the movement, people will constantly attack it as if an RBE's proposals falls or rises upon the validity of the mythacist hypothesis, and that is not we want to represent it.

I understand this. I Googled for an article that dealt with this economic issue, but I couldn't find it. The premise was that major current events could be interpreted as a shift from a marketing / surplus goods economy to a controlled / scarce resources economy. I'd like to hear more informed dialogue about this perspective.

This latest Zeitgeist video refers to a logical computer program that will allocate resources in the most efficient manner. It seems to me to be more of a logical strategy for managing a human feed lot, than informing a self-governing world. I wasn't in disagreement with what was said, as much as what wasn't said. Many people believe that most of the recent wars are for resources. Others believe they are part of an older power struggle. Zeitgeist suggests all current conflicts can be resolved by placing faith in a global movement that hasn't been defined yet.

Yes, I get that, however, it is simply a means to an end.

Is there a short video clip just on that?

I can agree with that too. Notice I made no mention of them?

Part 1 is the film, unless you meant 'separate from the ZG movement?'

That is a Non Sequitur. Just because the Zeitgeist Movement (TZGM) discusses economics does not mean that it cannot also have a stance or position on religion that is consistent with Zeitgeist part 1. Economics is economics while religion is religion = apples and oranges. Most people have little interest in economics - it's just not very interesting. Most people on the planet have an interest in religion whether theist or atheist. TZGM doesn't need to do anymore than just make it clear that they've adopted the new mythicist position. People can take it or leave it but, it would be a conclusive final chapter for ZG1 that currently is just left hanging - which seems irresponsible to me. You don't get over 200 million views now for ZG and then ignore that kind of interest.

Over 16% of the US population are non-religious - that's the largest minority of all! It's larger than gays, blacks, Jews, NRA members and larger than any one religious denomination in the US! They've always been ignored and omitted. Ever consider that it might actually HELP TZGM by adopting the mythicist position? If there really was a way to "move forward" maybe that would've been one? There's a large % of people out there who's favorite ZG movie is still Zeitgeist part 1. It's a monumental mistake to omit that interest.

This entire omission of religion is, from what I can tell, due to Jacque Fresco's own distaste for any mention of religion at all. Read through this post and the following responses.

viewtopic.php?p=19393#p19393

_________________
2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube

Okay, but you do realize that is not VOR's non-sequitur. The antagonists invented that one and he is just bringing it up here because he has had much experience in being challenged with that non-sequitur time & time again across the web, especially on youtube from the likes of keithtruth & co.

Well, I never said it was VOR's non sequitur - it's just a poor argument no matter who makes it (not that VOR was), as you say, "antagonists invented that one." Keith Trash is full of poor arguments and fabrications as his main goal is to shore up his Xian faith at all costs. So, allowing that non sequitur fallacy to stand and become a part of TZGM seems cowardice to me - I cannot respect that at all. Two wrongs don't make a right and people like Keith Trash & co, are never going to join TZGM anyway so, why even waste time trying to cater to them?

It seems like the omission of religion in TZGM has more to do with Jaque Fresco anyway as explained in this post. But, don't get me wrong, I like much of Jaque Fresco's ideas and work for the Venus Project. I just cannot understand why he has such a problem with us and our mythicist position and why Jaque Fresco's own distaste for any discussion of religion means that all of TZGM must follow that view. Besides, Acharya's work complements Jaque Fresco's own views on religion in many ways. There is something really weird going on here and it seems like another Matt Dillahunty episode.

As Tat Tvam Asi said in that thread:

_________________
2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube

Ah, okay, I gotcha.

But that is not the purpose of TZM, the purpose as I have stated before is just that, to promote a resource based economy. The very idea that TZM as a whole has to take a stance on religion is absurd and counter productive to what we are trying to do. By doing so we would create a division that would otherwise stifle our intended goals. You don't have to be a mythacist, nor do you even have to take a stance on any religion in order to be a TZM member. I myself happen to be a Mythacist, I just don't conflate it with my stance on TZM. The problem with this claim is that there are already Christian Fundies and closed minded tards out there trying to conflate the movies as the movement. Sure the movies helped generate interest into the movement, but they are not the stated goals of them. To take a stance on the Mythacist position would give the antagonists actually legitimate ammo to state that the movies are the movement.



This only works of every Atheist agrees with the Mythacist position, which they do not. Some reject outright as just dogmatic as Christian Apologists do, others embrace it and cling to it as if its some kind of dogmatic religious doctrine. Then there are people like myself, you and those on the forums who have discussions like this. TZM doesn't need to take a stance on Mythacism officially, we all know PJ endorses it because of his stance on the movies; and certain others such as VTV, Thunder, Paradigm667 and others who are well known on TZM sites endorse it. It is also irrelevant to what an RBE is about. Unless you can make a case that a stance on mythacism would actually be complementary to the stated goals of reaching an RBE, then I see no reason why at all there should be an official stance on it.

Well, I refer you back to all my posts above. Keep in mind that I never said "TZM as a whole has to take a stance on religion" as if it were some doctrine that everyone must follow. All I'm saying is that there's nothing wrong with TZGM taking a position on religion that is consistent with its RBE goals and ZG1. It's just common sense. That really shouldn't be a shocker. What doesn't make any sense is for TZGM to pretend like ZG1 never existed. I explain more on that later in this post.

No, that's false and you probably already know that but this is what ZG members keep repeating like a mantra so, everyone just goes along with it. It's not counter productive at all - it would simply be consistent.

That's false and I think you already know that too. It's not about forcing it on anyone - it's about simply letting members know that the mythicist position even exists as an option. One that Peter Joseph supports or endorses or whatever.

TZGM creates its own division by not being consistent with the movies that made it popular in the first place.

As it should be. All I'm saying is there's nothing wrong with TZGM favoring freethought and the mythicist position. I think you may be assuming that I'm asking for far, far more than I really am. I'd like to see TZGM front page provide a link to the mythicist position video and article just to inform ZG members that it even exists as an option.

One doesn't need to be a fundy or anything else to conflate the two. It's a weird strategic move that doesn't make sense to me either, which all could've been avoided by naming it the Venus Project Movement or something other than Zeitgeist. That's what I would've done if I wanted clear differentiation between them.

Think about what you're saying. By not being consistent TZGM gives them loads of ammo too. The antagonists are always going to antagonize, might as well give them less to complain about by being consistent. Otherwise, you've got a bunch of Keith Trashheads out there seeing this as confirmation that they're influencing TZGM with their prayers to Jesus. TZGM is giving them power by not having the courage of its convictions to be consistent with ZG1.

He has never said a word about it to my knowledge. He's never let ZG members know it exists as an option or that he supports it. Peter has done plenty of advertising and promotion for the VP for Jaque Fresco but, he has never let ZG members know Acharya created a mythicist position to enable people to have a position on religion that is consistent with ZG1 and the movement. I would think many ZG members would appreciate that greatly. It's really weird when people try to post at the ZGM forum in the religion section to discuss something on part 1 and their thread gets moved over to the "miscellaneous" section and have a moderator yell at them for posting about ZG1 in the religion section.

Let me break it down like this:

1. Much confusion could've been avoided by calling it the Venus Project Movement instead of TZGM. Then, nobody would've ever needed to repeatedly explain why or how TZGM has nothing to do with the movies. Claiming that TZGM has nothing to do with the movies will never make any sense no matter how many times they try to explain it. It's a monumental error that should probably be fixed.

2. Consider all mentions of "environment," "nature," "natural world" and "natural resources" etc. by Peter Joseph, Jacque Fresco and TZGM.

Ever consider that perhaps some of this may be due to the fact that economic and religious systems around the world are incompatible and inconsistent and have little to no appreciation for nature? Think about it.

3. If TZGM really wants a resource based economy (RBE) with a better "relationship to the environment," then, perhaps it would be wise to be consistent. The mythicist position complements TZGM and its RBE goals and is consistent with Zeitgeist part 1. That's genius! What other system in the world has EVER had an economic position and a religious position that are consistent and complement one another in their appreciation for the environment, natural resources and nature itself geared towards sustainability? None that I am ware of.

TZGM has an outstanding opportunity to be the first throughout history to ever do so but, they're ignoring the elephant in the room against their own interests. Why? Because they're afraid of upsetting the religious crazies out there that aren't ever going to join TZGM anyway? Zeitgeist part 1 already exists and every criticism that is ever going to be made has already been said. We have successfully addressed those criticisms rendering them obsolete by providing new source citations from highly respected and credentialed scholarship as well as more primary sources in the New Zeitgeist Part 1 Sourcebook.

Religion has a history of divisiveness that has resulted in constant conflict and war, which certainly affects economies. So, religion always has and always will have a huge affect on the economy in ways never quite honestly discussed. The Mythicist Position neutralizes the power of religious divisiveness by demonstrating that they're all connected via nature, mythology, astrotheology and archaeoastronomy. It's very difficult for any of the Abrahamic religions to claim superiority or dominance over Pagan religion when they find out that their origins all stem from nature. There can be no us vs. them in the mythicist position as we appreciate all of the similarities as well as differences due to environment, culture and era. The mythicist position supports learning about comparative religion and the substance behind the mythology, while Abrahamic religions do not - they only want you reading their specific holy texts in hopes of indoctrination and your money (economy). They still to this day lead people to believe that Pagan religion is evil and nothing could be further from the truth and the mythicist position exposes that for all to see.

So, in the end all I'm saying is that there are many links on the front of TZGM page - there's nothing wrong or inconsistent with adding a link to the mythicist position video. Look at how much advertising and promotion PJ has done for Jacque Fresco. I don't think asking for the minimum is too much to ask when Acharya (and the rest of us here) have worked so hard to defend and continue to substantiate Zeitgeist Part 1, do you?

4. TZGM may want to do a Google for "religion economy." I just did a quick search and a few interesting articles came up on the first page:

Religion and Economy


Economics of religion

From "Moving Forward: "A Resource Based Economy" at 1:44:36 to 1:47:44

At 1:47:44 It says: "A Resource Based Economy: The scientific method applied to social concern"

Is religion not also a social concern? Please define "social concern" in case I missed it somewhere as I couldn't find a clear definition in TZGM Guide. Religion is a social concern to me when I have to worry about 'end times' apocalypse, Armageddon prophecies threatening to end the world due to religious beliefs. How does omitting all of that help the economy? If 90% of the planet are religious and believe that we're in the 'end times' what could possibly motivate them to improve the economy or even care? I feel very strongly that TZGM is making a fatal mistake by not continuing to address the issues of religion and its impact on society and our future.

I do like the design by Jacque Fresco at 1:52:19 as it is in the form of the 8 spoked Pagan Sunwheel. I wonder if he's aware of that?

This article is linked to the front page at TZGM but, just can't find a way to mention Acharya and her mythicist position just to let people know it even exists?

That is one more argument for accepting the mythicist position into TZGM in one way or another right there already on TZGM website!

This Stinkin' Earth is a blog emphasizing my point that many religious folks couldn't care less about the environment.

P.S. It would be helpful to have the mythicist position and Zeitgeist Part 1 & the Supportive Evidence linked in the Q & A section under Acharya too.

_________________
2013 Astrotheology Calendar
The Mythicist Position
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube

All good points FTL, and a good overall argument at that. I've said many times before that calling the movement "The Zeitgeist Movement" immediately associates the movement with the Zeitgeist Movies. It looks like a dishonest move to try and make these false claims of dissassociation with the ZG: The Movie, and people see it as blatantly false and deceptive. It's bloody obvious that the two are linked. As you said, why not call it the "Venus Project Movement" if they didn't want to be associated with the content and claims made in the "Zeitgeist" movies?

Fresco's obviously an eccentric genius type, really smart in some area's and completely ignorant in others. That should go without saying. Who and what he is, is all very much out in the open. This guy wouldn't have any popularity right now if he hadn't contacted PJ, then associated his VP with PJ's Zeitgeist sequal movie, and then continued to ride the coat tails of PJ's success and fame from there on out by collaborating together on future projects. It seems that Fresco didn't want the offensiveness of the religoius material to possibility hurt his baby - his VP now clothed in the fame of the term "TZGM". It's bloody obvious why the movement is called TZGM rather than TVPM. And as for the eight spoked wheel design, who knows what goes into this guys designs. The project is located in Venus Florida which calls attention to the pagan Venus myths, the morning star which the myth of Lucificer originated from. Then he's designing the eight spoked wheel as you've mentioned. This could all be unconscious I guess, but it seems more of a conscious effort when you really look at the whole thing and start putting one and one together. He's smart enough to know good and well how all of this comes across to those with the eyes to see it in this light. Maybe that's why he doesn't care for us??? The astrotheological studies community may have his number in that sense. Who knows. But the fundies sure as hell have every reason to pin the tail on the anti-christ just on what I've mentioned so far. The whole thing is very anti-christian and it's bloody obvious...

_________________
The Jesus Mythicist Creed:
The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?

I've never said that, but unless you can demonstrate why the Mythacist position compliments an RBE, there is no reason for TZM to take an official stance on it.




Fine then, how is it consistent?



I've never said that, I said that not every single Atheist accepts the mythacist position and that some outright reject it.



WTF?





Then ask PJ about this, it's his site not mine.



First, does he really have to say something in order to know his stance on it when he has largely created a portion of his film based upon the work of Acharya? Secondly, I don't need to explain Peter position on why he doesn't advertise for ZG1, you can e-mail him about that yourself. Thirdly, the reason why people get their threads locked about Z1 on religion is to divert traffic about it over here. The forum is about RBE issues, not issues raised in ZG1 since ZG1 has like 95% off topic material.



I personally see no point in it to be honest. Besides, the third film is out and it is now a moot point to follow change the name of the movement.



TZM actually focuses on the economic system. It does make a couple of jabs at religion every now and again but only in the context that religion has anything to offer as a viable solution.



The Mythacist position is a position for the field of mythology and other times comparative mythology. How is [comparative] mythology at all related to an RBE?



Or we can do what many European nations did to neutralize fundamentalism, which is to educate people. Once that happens I would have no problem teaching the mythacist position to a class of students in mythology and comparative mythology in an RBE.

I have a few basic objections to this whole Venus Project and Resource Based Economy movement.

They say they want "a sustainable future where humanity is not united by religious or political ideology, but by the scientific method". The mythicist position is precisely about applying the scientific method to the study of religion. By ignoring scientific analysis of religion they indicate they are dogmatists.

The Resource Based Economy just looks like repackaged anarchism and communism. The fatal flaw in all such non-market utopias is that they are wide open to takeover by tyranny, when the dreamers get pushed aside by careerists who ride into power without ethics, eg Stalin. This flaw is one big reason why the Venus Project will not even get to first base with sensible people.

I support idealistic goals, for example those in the Sermon on the Mount and the Last Judgment (Matt 5 & 25). However, devising a realistic practical incremental evolutionary path to actually attain such goals requires a lot more serious analysis and honesty than I can see in the Venus Project. In practical terms, the sustainability agenda has to make markets work for the poor, not abolish markets. Firms require the incentive for innovation provided by the profit motive. Central planning does not work. These guys should read some Hayek, eg The Road to Serfdom.

Talking about abolishing money is ridiculous. Maybe in five thousand years when we have global abundance, but not in the next few hundred years, except via methods like Pol Pot.