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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:54 pm 
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Tom Harper, Ward Gasque & Christ in Egypt

I had been wanting to address Ward Gasque's criticisms of Tom Harpur's book The Pagan Christ for a long time but couldn't care enough to do it. But now, Acharya's book Christ in Egypt blasts Gasque's criticisms and survey out of the water to the point of embarrassment.

Ward Gasque wrote a scathing review of Harpur's book back in August of 2004 entitled, "The Leading Religion Writer in Canada ... Does He Know What He's Talking About?" hnn.us/articles/6641.html

Of course, Gasque insinuates that Harper doesn't know what he's talking about. Gasque refused to acknowledge that a single ancient Egyptian religious concept influenced Christianity. He sent e-mails to 20 Egyptologists who also denied any Egyptian influence on Christianity. Regarding his survey of "twenty leading Egyptologists," Gasque, said:

Quote:
"Not being myself an expert in Egyptian religion, I consulted those who are about their views of contribution that Kuhn, Higgins and Massey have made to Egyptology and whether they thought some of the key ideas of The Pagan Christ well grounded. So I sent an email to twenty leading Egyptologists — in Canada, USA, UK, Australia, Germany, and Austria."

Note that out of these 20 experts in Egyptian religion, he only mentions two. We have no idea who the other 18 were. We never saw what Ward wrote in those e-mails he sent them either.

Ward Gasque also attacked Gerald Massey. Little did Ward (or his 20 expert Egyptologists) know that Massey was quite heavily peer reviewed by the top Egyptologists of his day.

Who Is Gerald Massey?

Tom Harper responded to Gasque:

Quote:
Ward Gasque, is a professor of Church History. But his remarks confined themselves almost entirely to an expression of comments on the alleged validity of the New Testament Gospels as evidence for an historical Jesus. This was unfortunate. Any first year seminary student [except perhaps at the most extreme conservative Bible Colleges in the country] knows that the four Gospels are decidedly NOT "four independent witnesses" of the supposed historical Christ. For example, Matthew and Luke plagiarize Mark, the earliest Gospel, to the extent of reproducing between them roughly 75% of Mark’s material, often verse for verse. The last 200 years of biblical criticism has shown beyond any shadow of doubt that the Gospels are faith documents, benign propaganda, if you like. But they are NOT history or even biography. If indeed there is, as Gasque has said, “incontrovertible evidence” of Jesus’ historicity why hasn’t someone produced a shred of it? The scholarly world itself is waiting.

Toward the end of Gasque's review of Harper's book he comments:
Quote:
Ward Gasque "Evidence for Jesus as a historical personage is incontrovertible."

Ahh yes, of course, I should've known. The evidence for a historical Jesus is "incontrovertible." Never mind the last 2,000 years of controversy that still exists to this very day. I'm reminded of the thread Religion and the Ph.D.: A Brief History. Tom Harper came back with the perfect response:

"If indeed there is, as Gasque has said, “incontrovertible evidence” of Jesus’ historicity why hasn’t someone produced a shred of it? The scholarly world itself is waiting."

Critics find it convenient to omit factoids such as:

Quote:
The ancient Egyptian religion is a sun-based religion and the yearly cycle of the stars was very important for them to calculate their calender. It would be surprising if there was no an alignment with certain celestial phenomena. However, archaeoastronomy is not an established science working hand in hand with archaeology in much of Mespotamia and Egypt. There are several reasons for this:

"The problem is that until recently hardly any research was done in that area: Egyptologists are no astronomers, and calculations in that field are extremely complex. This was taken for granted, but not a field of research. So nothing to much 'scientific' can be said, simply because of lack of data. That is something else than saying Egyptologists dismiss celestial alignments: they simply never looked into it. That is the disadvantage of a rich culture like that of the Egyptians: one can't do everything."

- Paul Haanen, Archaeologist in Egypt
(bold emphasis mine)

Here's a video clip of modern Egyptologist Dr. Bojana Mojsov admitting parallels between Osiris &/or Horus with Jesus. And, at 5:30 you'll see a stone carving of Isis as she hovers over Osiris in the form of a bird to receive the divine seed (notice there's no "member") of Osiris. Mojsov then says, "It's a miraculous birth of the savior child."



"The Pyramid Texts speak of "the great virgin" three times 682c, 728a, 2002a"

"In a text in the Abydos Temple of Seti I, Isis herself declares: "I am the great virgin"
- Christ in Egypt, page 152

Quote:
"The Egyptian goddess who was equally 'the Great Virgin' (hwnt) and 'Mother of the God' was the object of the very same praise bestowed upon her successor [Mary, Virgin Mother of Jesus]."

- Dr. Witt, an Egyptologist, Christ in Egypt, 120

On Isis
viewtopic.php?p=27655#p27655

On the Luxor inscription, which cites Egyptologists and primary sources
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/luxor.html

Acharya's response to professional historian and professed Christian devotee, Dr. Chris Forbes, and Acharya's Sourcebook are relevant here:

Rebuttal to Dr. Chris Forbes concerning 'Zeitgeist, Part 1'

The New Zeitgeist Part 1 Sourcebook (August 2010)

Since Acharya's first book, The Christ Conspiracy, in 1999 (which is currently in the process of being revised for a 2nd edition) and since Zeitgeist Part 1, we have come far. Acharya just wrote Christ in Egypt in 2009, and the new Zeitgeist Sourcebook is from August 2010. She has never given up and never will.

We are winning the arguments with credible primary source evidence and highly respected scholarly commentary on them. However, since so many apologists and some extreme pseudo-skeptical atheists aren't interested in the facts and evidence but, rather, their own biased false views already debunked, we must continue fighting back as hard as we can, as we still have the majority of academia and public opinion against us, due to their own severe lack of knowledge on these issues. We certainly are having an effect though. Now is definitely not a time to give in, give up or back down in any way shape of form. Look at how far we've come. Where would you like to be on these issues in another 10 years from now?

"A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes."

- Mark Twain


Our shoes are on now. 8)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:21 pm 
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I have that book "The Pagan Christ" its a good read.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:01 pm 
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i remember reading that Ward Gasque "hitpiece" back in the day and rolling my eyes at the sheer blinkered ignorance of it.

i mean here is an excerpt

Quote:
Evidence for Jesus as a historical personage is incontrovertible.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest, no matter how sane it is.

it reminds me of that bible verse

Quote:
Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, Am I so long a time with you, and you have not known Me, Ward?...


literalists have a hard time admitting they were taken in by their own childish misreading of an obvious metaphor.

i remember thinking "GOD!!! i am so thick!!!" when i finally saw it was all a sublime metaphor, it was humbling, but better than continuing in literalist ignorance.

Quote:
We are winning the arguments with credible primary source evidence and highly respected scholarly commentary on them. However, since so many apologists and some extreme pseudo-skeptical atheists aren't interested in the facts and evidence but, rather, their own biased false views already debunked, we must continue fighting back as hard as we can, as we still have the majority of academia and public opinion against us, due to their own severe lack of knowledge on these issues. We certainly are having an effect though. Now is definitely not a time to give in, give up or back down in any way shape of form. Look at how far we've come. Where would you like to be on these issues in another 10 years from now?


yes, well said.

another 10 years from now? It would be great if people had a clue about comparative religion, perennial philosophy, joe campbell, etc etc etc

but realistically people tend to be woefully uninterested in the mechanisms of their own enslavement, that's what made it so easy to enslave them in the first place, and it's just so embarrassing to admit you've been had, but that is no excuse for us not to fight on in the interests of a better understanding.

but look at banking for example, sure we'll lend you 500,000 dollars for a house, as long as you dont mind paying 500,000 for the priviledge and becoming a wage slave with a mortgaged humanity into the bargain.

i once pointed out to a guy how much the bank was screwing him for the priviledge of borrowing the money for that new car of his and even though it was an outright rip his response was "oh well, at least i have something to work for now" !(*!&(&*!^*&!^*&^%%^^&

and then we have Ward Gasque and tektonic Holding etc etc etc they just couldnt be wrong, could they?

so the price to pay for knowing is ignorance, but hopefully those who really want to learn will continue to advance in genuine understanding and continue to benefit greatly from those who have wrestled with the puzzle before them.

one "Tom Harpur" is worth more than a bucket of "Ward Gasques" any day of the week.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:22 pm 
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Quote:
We are winning the arguments with credible primary source evidence and highly respected scholarly commentary on them. However, since so many apologists and some extreme pseudo-skeptical atheists aren't interested in the facts and evidence but, rather, their own biased false views already debunked, we must continue fighting back as hard as we can, as we still have the majority of academia and public opinion against us, due to their own severe lack of knowledge on these issues. We certainly are having an effect though. Now is definitely not a time to give in, give up or back down in any way shape of form. Look at how far we've come. Where would you like to be on these issues in another 10 years from now?

"A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes."

- Mark Twain


Our shoes are on now. 8)

Where I'd like to see us be in 10 years ... I'd like to see academia finally create a sorely needed

Department of Astrotheological Studies,

which would factor in astronomy, mythology and archaeoastronomy. Archaeoastronomy was only recently added as a new department in the mid 90's. Now it's time for astrotheology or at least include it in with archaeoastronomy.

We have a mountain of evidence demonstrating that the origins of religious concepts stem from natural phenomena i.e. nature worship. It has evolved over time due to similarities and differences in environment, culture and era. It's just basic common sense and offers an Occam's razor explanation for the origins and evolution of religion throughout all history.

A problem few are aware is that so many of our famous top universities actually began as religious institutions. Religion has never let go of it's strangle-hold on religious studies throughout academia. It has been a losing battle to fight against the religious special interest funding which has had serious influence on what types of studies take place and what departments are created.
Quote:
"Scholars in general can also be notoriously cautious, particularly when it comes to stepping on the toes of mainstream institutions, especially those of a religious bent—and there have been many such establishments, including major universities like Yale and Harvard, both of which started as Christian divinity schools.1 Numerous other institutions in the Christian world were either founded specifically as Christian universities and colleges or had seminaries attached to them. As stated on the Princeton Theological Seminary website, regarding early American education:

"Within the last quarter of the eighteenth century, all learning…could be adequately taught and studied in the schools and colleges, nearly all of which were church initiated.2"

Footnotes:

1 See the Yale Divinity School website: “Training for the Christian Ministry was a main purpose in the founding of Yale College in 1701.” (“History of Yale Divinity School.”) See also the Harvard Divinity School website: “The origins of Harvard Divinity School and the study of theology at Harvard can be traced back to the very beginning of Harvard College.” (“Harvard Divinity School History and Mission.”)

2 “About Princeton Theological Seminary–History of the Seminary.”

- Christ in Egypt, 505

Quote:
"As for this tiresome business about there being "no scholar" or "no serious scholar" who advocates the Christ Myth theory: Isn't it obvious that scholarly communities are defined by certain axioms in which grad students are trained, and that they will lose standing in those communities if they depart from those axioms? The existence of an historical Jesus is currently one of those. That should surprise no one, especially with the rightward lurch of the Society for Biblical Literature in recent years. It simply does not matter how many scholars hold a certain opinion.... "

- Dr. Robert M. Price, Biblical Scholar

We now have an opportuniy to turn this around. Special thanks to the US secular Constitution, the founding fathers like Jefferson etc. and people like Dr. Price and Acharya S/Murdock and so many more.

Tom Harpur On The Pagan Roots Of Christianity


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Astrotheology.Net
Mythicists United
Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
2015 Astrotheology Calendar
Astrotheology Calendar Special
Stellar House Publishing at Youtube
The Mythicist Position


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