Tat Tvam Asi wrote:
I would like to elaborate a little about Amun; Atum; Ra and Re.Amun:
AD 7: Imagine the total creative force of the MW centre (Ra) – and compare this to the creative powers of the Sun. Ra has obviously created the Sun; the Sun is allegorical a son of Ra.
I had a feeling you'd go that direction.
Just as Ra has created everything in the galaxy, the Sun is creating (really re-creating) everything on the Earth. The qualities of Ra and the Sun can be relatively compared, but there is the total creative force and the whole creative process in difference.
So then do you think the Egyptians were flat out wrong for writings about Ra rising in the morning at setting in the evening? GodAlmighty put the primary source evidence from the written record on the table. It was the Egyptians themselves who were associating Ra with the sun, whether or not there exists a rendition where Ra is the MW center creative force.
That's why I'm saying that one must have to connect both aspects. On one hand you see evidence of Ra being the MW galactic center but there's an entire body of evidence clearly placing Ra as the daily sun too. So then how does one get the right celestial object correct without concluded that there's a two fold meaning involved with the symbolism of Ra?
That's really it Ivar. The above paragraph shows a working knowledge of the interconnection between the MW galactic center and the sun (Sol) of our solar system. The Egyptians clearly speak of Ra as symbolic of the daily sun. You see evidence of Ra used symbolically to represent the creative force of the MW galactic center. A parallel discussion could easily come in the form of the theological argument about Yahweh and Yeshua / Jehovah and Jesus. How can Jesus be here, a man, and yet the God of the universe? That question has caused all sorts of confusion in theology. But the storyline mythology does present such an equation. The two are considered one. And Jesus is given solar attribute throughout the story. So it's really about the sun and God interconnected as one.
Now of course turning to the MW galactic center and our sun (Sol) the same type of logic applies. One might say, "How can Ra be the daily sun and yet the creative force of the MW galactic center at the same time?" Perhaps because the myth concerns an interconnected relationship between the two things being represented in the mythological storyline. Ra of initial creation and Ra the sustaining life giving force of creation. Thus giving way to all of the compound names for Ra / Re...
That's only one cosmogony though, the one from Hermopolis.
The one at Heliopolis depicts Atum as being the first god, who created himself out of a ben-ben stone, then masturbated and ejaculated his sperm across space and that is what created the universe.
In many texts, Atum is just a form of Re and they are often listed in composite form as Atum-Re. Re being Khepri in the morning and then Atum at evening, the idea being conveyed is that, as the first god, he is the eldest of gods and so dies of old age and descends into the underworld at his setting.
So in this cosmogony, since Re is Atum, Re IS the first of all gods. Yet is still a sun god.
But at Sais, there was yet another cosmogony. Neith was said to be the first, primordial self-existent deity, and that she gave a virgin birth to Re (naturally, since there were no other gods around). And yet there, her offspring is also explicitly said to be the sun.
Yet at Memphis, Ptah was the first self-existent creator god. And he was later merged with Osiris & Sokar. And yet at Thebes, Amun was the first self-existent creator god, and like Atum, was merged with Re, hence Amun-Re, thus again forming a cosmogony in which Re is the first creator god.
Amun represented the essential and hidden, whilst in Ra he represented revealed divinity. As the creator deity "par excellence", he was the champion of the poor or troubled and central to personal piety. Amun was self created, without mother and father, and during the New Kingdom he became the greatest expression of transcendental deity in Egyptian theology. He was not considered to be imminent within creation nor was creation seen as an extension of himself.Notes:
Amun hidden; creator “par excellence” self created.
As the cult of Amun grew in importance, Amun became identified with the chief deity who was worshipped in other areas during that period, the sun god Ra. This identification led to another merger of identities, with Amun becoming Amun-Ra. In the Hymn to Amun-Ra he is described as "Lord of truth, father of the gods, maker of men, creator of all animals, Lord of things that are, creator of the staff of life.Notes:
Chief deity; became identified with the chief deity who was worshipped in other areas during that period, the sun god Ra; led to other identities with Amun becoming Amun Ra.Atum:
“Atum is one of the most important and frequently mentioned deities from earliest times, as evidenced by his prominence in the Pyramid Texts, where he is portrayed as both a creator and father to the king. He is usually depicted as a man wearing either the royal head-cloth or the dual white and red crown of Upper Egypt, and Lower Egypt, reinforcing his connection with kingship. Sometimes he also is shown as a serpent, the form which he returns to at the end of the creative cycle and also occasionally as a mongoose, lion, bull, lizard, or ape.Notes:
Shown as a serpent, the form which he returns to at the end of the creative cycle
In the Heliopolitan creation myth established in the sixth dynasty, Atum was considered to be the first god, having created himself, sitting on a mound (benben) (or identified with the mound itself), from the primordial waters (Nu). Early myths state that Atum created the god Shu and goddess Tefnut from spitting her out of his mouth.Notes:
Being the first god in creation myth; created himself; sitting on a mound (benben); or identified as the mound itself; from the primordial waters.
In the Old Kingdom the Egyptians believed that Atum lifted the dead king's soul from his pyramid to the starry heavens. He was also a solar deity, associated with the primary sun god Ra. Atum was linked specifically with the evening sun, while Ra was associated more with the morning sunNotes:
Solar deity; associated with the primary sun god Ra; linked especially with the evening sun; Ra more with the morning sun.Ra/Re:
One of the most important deities in Egyptian mythology, the sun god Ra (or Re) was the supreme power in the universe. The giver of life, he was often merged with the god Amun as Amun-Ra. Some myths present Ra as the head of the Egyptian pantheon and ruler of all the gods. Others say that he was the only god and that all other deities were merely aspects of Ra.
Notes: supreme power in the universe; giver of life; often merged with the god Amun; ruler of all gods; the only god; other gods merely aspects of Ra.
In some creation myths, Ra emerged from either a primeval mound or primeval waters as Ra-Atum and created Tefnut (Moisture) and Shu (Air). From this first divine pair sprang the sky goddess Nut and earth god Geb, who created the universe and gave birth to the gods Osiris*, Isis*, Set*, Nephthys, and Horus. Notes:
Ra emerged from either a Primeval Mound or Primeval Waters as Ra-Atum; created Tefnut and Shu; Nut and Geb created the universe (MW in my opinion).(Tefnut):
Tefnut is a daughter of the solar god Atum-Ra. Married to her brother, Shu, she is mother of Nut, the sky and Geb, the earth. Notes:
Nut represents the Milky Way; (not sure that Geb represents the Earth)
There are a number of variants to the myth of the creation of Tefnut and her twin brother Shu. In all versions, Tefnut is the product of parthenogenesis, and all involve some variety of bodily fluid.Notes:
product of “bodily fluid” parthenogenesis.Discussion:Amun:
1) Notes: Amun hidden; creator “par excellence” self created;
2) Notes: Chief deity; became identified with the chief deity who was worshipped in other areas during that period, as the sun god Ra; led to other identities with Amun becoming Amun Ra.
Comment: Amun and Ra are identical and possibly a result of cultural overlay of deities.Atum:
1) Shown as a serpent, the form which he returns to at the end of the creative cycle.
2) Notes: Being the first god in creation myth; created himself; sitting on a mound (benben); or identified as the mound itself; from the primordial waters.
3) Note: Solar deity; associated with the primary sun god Ra; linked especially with the evening sun; Re more with the morning sun.Comment:
Atum and Ra are identical as primary deities and having the same attributes and qualities.Ra/Re:
1) Notes: supreme power in the universe; giver of life; often merged with the god Amun; ruler of all gods; the only god; other gods merely aspects of Ra.
2) Notes: Ra emerged from either a Primeval Mound or Primeval Waters as Ra-Atum; created Tefnut and Shu; Nut and Geb created the universe (MW in my opinion).Comment:
Ra/Re are merged with Amun. Both emerged directly from the Primeval Waters and connected to the Primeval Mound. Other gods are merely aspects of Ra/Re. Notice that Ra/Re also is identified with Atum as Ra-Atum, the deity sitting on the Primeval Mound, the first physical creation in the Milky Way from where the Milky Way goddess also emerge and give form to everything in our galaxy.
Which is exactly what the Ogdoad states: “Together the four concepts represent the primal, fundamental state of the beginning, they are what always was. In the myth, however, their interaction ultimately proved to be unbalanced, resulting in the arising of a new entity.When the entity opened, it revealed Ra, the fiery sun, inside. After a long interval of rest, Ra, together with the other deities, created all other things”.
Ra is the first fiery light of the Central Light – not the Sun/Sol. Ra is directly connected to the creation of the Milky Way.(Tefnut):
1) Notes: Nut represents the Milky Way; (I´m not sure that Geb represents the Earth)
2) Notes: product of “bodily fluid” parthenogenesis.Comment:
Ra created Tefnut who give birth to Nut, the Milky Way Goddess:
“Hathor had a complex relationship with Ra, in one myth she is his eye and considered his daughter but later, when Ra assumes the role of Horus with respect to Kingship, she is considered Ra's mother. She absorbed this role from another cow goddess 'Mht wrt' ("Great flood") who was the mother of Ra in a creation myth and carried him between her horns. As a mother she gave birth to Ra each morning on the eastern horizon and as wife she conceives through union with him each day.Hathor, along with the goddess Nut, was associated with the Milky Way
during the third millennium B.C. when, during the fall and spring equinoxes, it aligned over and touched the earth where the sun rose and fell.”- I think this says it all.My conclusion:
1) Amun; Atum; Ra and Re are all identical and merged together via cultural overlaying or by competitions of deities.
2) They are all linked directly to the Primeval Waters and to the Primordial Mound
3) The Primordial Mound is the symbol for the Milky Way centre and the First Great Light that:
4) Very clearly accordingly to the explanations above, has create all other gods/goddesses and everything else in the then known world of our Milky Way.
5) The connection to the Milky Way is furthermore emphasised by the Serpent symbol and of course by the direct Nut goddess of the Milky Way.
6) There is NO way that these deities can be directly connected to the Sun, because it all tells of the creation before (the primeval waters) and of the first firm land (the primeval mound) and the first deities that clearly are connected to creation of everything else in the Milky Way.
7) Connecting the seasonal Sun as supposedly being Ra/Re/Amun/Atum directly to the First Deities of the Primeval Waters; to the First Supreme Light and to the First Land of the Primeval Mound where Ra/Re/Amun/Atum resides, is in fact to claim Mytho-Cosmologically/Astrotheologically that the Sun has created everything in the Milky Way - on a creational stage where the Sun even wasn´t created?