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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:46 am 
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Yeah, it's difficult not to mention a few things here and there but, it's not much better than encyclopedic entries. I mean, of course, some comparative religion courses will point out that the Maya and Aztecs were sun worshippers but, they won't point out why or what that really means. Or they won't point out the rampant sun and moon worship within all the Abrahamic religions. We need a new Department of Astrotheological Studies, which would factor in astronomy, mythology, archaeoastronomy and more. Archaeoastronomy was only recently added as a new department in the mid 90's. Now it's time for astrotheology or at least include it in with archaeoastronomy. It's what's missing from the discussion and very few are aware of what astrotheology even is.

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"The ancient Egyptian religion is a sun-based religion and the yearly cycle of the stars was very important for them to calculate their calender. It would be surprising if there was no an alignment with certain celestial phenomena. However, archaeoastronomy is not an established science working hand in hand with archaeology in much of Mespotamia and Egypt. There are several reasons for this:

"The problem is that until recently hardly any research was done in that area: Egyptologists are no astronomers, and calculations in that field are extremely complex. This was taken for granted, but not a field of research. So nothing to much 'scientific' can be said, simply because of lack of data. That is something else than saying Egyptologists dismiss celestial alignments: they simply never looked into it. That is the disadvantage of a rich culture like that of the Egyptians: one can't do everything."

- Paul Haanen, Archaeologist in Egypt

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:21 am 
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Actually, the courses I took were much more than that. The one with Victor Matthews http://www.amazon.com/Victor-Harold-Mat ... 148&sr=8-1 actually did go back to the Egyptians, Mesopotamians, and other like myths, which caused me to dig deeper into the relationship between Horus and the Hebrew religion. Notice his first book there, called Parallels of the Old Testament. It's not comparative religions, but comparative mythologies. It was more than an encyclopedia entry, but less than what Acharya writes about. He did a whole lot more than talk about Mayans and Aztecs. In fact, he didn't even bring them up in the course. The sole focus was on how the Hebrew religion evolved from the surrounding mythologies of the time.

In a history course, I learned how some of our laws relate to the ancient of all laws, which I have a hard time spelling it and spell check doesn't appear to have it.

The information is right there in a secular education and sometimes extremely evident, but few seem to dig deeper than the 4 month course goes. They don't continue to ask questions and seek out the answers after it is all said and done, but they are given the information, but go by what their church tells them to do with it and that is blow it off. Currently there is accusations by the GOP line up for guys running for president, accusing high education of trying to create atheists. That is because state universities do tell them what religion is really all about.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:57 am 
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Mriana, I'm unclear why you're even attempting to argue with me over this because I know better. I guess you've forgotten that we discussed your courses back when you were actually taking them. The fact remains that astrotheology was never brought up. You're confusing astrotheology with "The sole focus was on how the Hebrew religion evolved from the surrounding mythologies of the time," i.e. comparative religion. Just because courses mention Egypt and Horus or Buddhism etc doesn't mean those courses even come close to explaining astrotheology. Nothing you've said about your courses compares to what I'm talking about here at all. Please think before you post. It appears you've misunderstood.

Victor Harold Matthews makes no mention of astrotheology. He doesn't even mention solar or lunar mythology or archaeoastronomy, no mention of astronomy, no mention of any constellations, no mention of the solstices or equinoxes.

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Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:28 pm 
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Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
Mriana, I'm unclear why you're even attempting to argue with me over this because I know better. I guess you've forgotten that we discussed your courses back when you were actually taking them. The fact remains that astrotheology was never brought up. You're confusing astrotheology with "The sole focus was on how the Hebrew religion evolved from the surrounding mythologies of the time," i.e. comparative religion. Just because courses mention Egypt and Horus or Buddhism etc doesn't mean those courses even come close to explaining astrotheology. Nothing you've said about your courses compares to what I'm talking about here at all. Please think before you post. It appears you've misunderstood.

Victor Harold Matthews makes no mention of astrotheology. He doesn't even mention solar or lunar mythology or archaeoastronomy, no mention of astronomy, no mention of any constellations, no mention of the solstices or equinoxes.


OK so you think you know better. Whatever. I also took some courses you don't even know about, but believe what you want. I really don't care. The fact is, Victor Matthews and a few others did teach more than you're letting on, but not as much as Acharya writes about. I said that and I just repeated and I stand by it and it seems to me, you just said exactly what I said, with your rambling about astrotheology. Seems to me you are not thinking about the words I wrote and just going on your own assumptions of what you THINK I'm saying.

Out of curiosity, have you read anything by Matthews? With all his talk about Judaism and Xianity evolving from the Egyptian religion, among other religions of the time, I don't think astrotheology needs to be mentioned for students to become more curious about the subject if they want to know more. IMHO, he gives more than enough info to cause a questioning and curious student to dig deeper. He MORE than just mentions Egypt and Horus.

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Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:00 pm 
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Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
Just because courses mention Egypt and Horus or Buddhism etc doesn't mean those courses even come close to explaining astrotheology.

The big struggle in this material is to open a simple and coherent discussion of the meaning of cosmic observation in ancient myth. It is a topic that is easily derailed by many swirling subterranean cultural currents. FTL is correct that many scholars provide empirical information about different religions but fail to analyse their links, especially the similarities that derive from observation of the same sky.

From the Judeo-Christian side, the injunction in Deuteronomy against nature worship has very powerful influence on scholarly and popular attitudes, leading to the pervasive idea that the historical shift to worship of a single supernatural deity involved progress towards a higher consciousness. In fact, the shift from polytheism to monotheism was more a degrading of spiritual consciousness for the sake of political control. The association between monotheism and technological progress has reinforced the linear model whereby evolution from primitive to modern in technology and economics maps to the evolution in spirituality from animism to polytheism to monotheism. Astrotheology is seen to conflict with dominant linear theories of progress. Now monotheism functions like a political wet blanket over spiritual diversity, using its position of cultural dominance to affect a condescending tone towards those who see how much human spirituality has lost in the suppression of ancient diversity.

Modern science also works to suppress astrotheology for basically irrational reasons. A main theme here is the cultural origin of science in battle against fatalistic occult movements that were important to the scientists of the Renaissance such as the Hermetic philosophers of Florence. Modern occultists give science plenty of ammunition, since popular astrology is a magical folk tradition more geared to public entertainment than to scientific knowledge. The occult is an easy target. People can say that astrotheology seeks to put human life into a cyclic framework governed by natural patterns such as the solstices and equinoxes, but that is a regress to a primitive fatalist mentality, and human life has broken free of this old idea that we are governed by the stars. Guilt by association means that any study of astrotheology is viewed within the framework of hostility to astrology, and seen as an effort to revive false stagnant irrational magical obsolete beliefs.

The trouble with these widespread forms of opposition to astrotheology is that they kick away the ladder which humanity climbed to establish our current scientific and religious paradigms. If Jesus Christ was primarily a symbol of cosmic attunement, with the alpha and omega marking the shift of the Great Year from the Age of Aries to the Age of Pisces, in line with readily available ancient observation of the time of Christ as a moment of celestial harmony between the seasons and the stars, then this fact is highly informative for understanding the emergence of Christian theology. Ignoring this fact means we stick to a partial, alienated and supernatural theory of Christian evolution, one that disrespects the ancient ability to perceive nature, ignoring their sense of wonder in creating a myth of how the observed patterns of the sky were reflected in imagined patterns on earth.

Acharya has recently discussed her relation to theosophy, a theme which some critics have used to argue she is irrational. This is a complex question. Much theosophy is quite mad, as any reading of Blavatsky's The Secret Doctrine will quickly reveal. Blavatky has been called the founder of modern astrology, and had immense influence on all the spiritualist movements of Europe before the Second World War. However, there is also some wheat among the tares. Her key argument, shared with astrotheology, is that Abrahamic faiths stand on the shoulders of a wide deep and rich tradition of human mythology, and can only be properly understood in the broader context of culture, especially the heritage from India and Egypt. Theosophy showed that this premise is rather explosive, as it opens the way to irrational magical ideas as much as to a serious scholarly analysis.

Gerald Massey, the founder of modern astrotheology, distanced himself from Blavatsky because he felt his own serious research was tarred in the public mind with the brush of theosophical fantasy. And yet, this attitude from Massey may well have made it harder for readers to appreciate his work. The common ground between astrotheology and theosophy in a critique of the supernatural delusion of mainstream religion was lost in an emphasis on their differences. For example, Blavatksy critiques the disenchantment of the scientific world view. This critique is central to astrotheology, because the basis of myth in natural observation was used to establish a sense of deep connection between humanity and the cosmos, a connection that is lost in the de-centered Copernican focus on objective facts.

Precession of the equinox is an interesting common ground between theosophy and astrotheology, as a topic that puts humanity back at the center of cosmology, with a deep empirical scientific truth, while also establishing a natural framework for the evolution of myth. The observation of the wobble of our planet is the basis for analysis of the long term relation between culture and nature, how religion is embedded within scientific observation. Modern views, such as Carl Sagan's story of the pale blue dot, follow Galileo and Newton in removing humanity from the center of objective cosmology. Understanding of precession points a path past this decentered mentality, seeing how Christianity emerged from observation of how our planet relates to the observed cosmos, how myth tells a deep story that links us to our universe.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:17 pm 
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So Mriana, were the courses more or less along the lines of Campbell-like comparative mythology? I've known people who had to read The Hero With A Thousand Faces in college. Not exactly astrotheology, but the fact that mythology includes a cosmological function is touched on. I find it strange that people respond so aggressively towards astrotheology because it's bloody obvious that all of these monolithic cultures were obsessed with the sky. I was introduced to precession and astrological symbolism in religion from reading Campbell but I didn't understand it until I went further along and found mythicist works. They definitely don't have any departments of astrotheological studies, but it doesn't seem too far of a reach to get from where they are now in comparative mythology and religion courses to a full blown astrotheological department. Like you say, a lot of the initial ground work of making connections between cultures is already there for the taking. I don't know if they're encouraging students to read Finkelstein these days, but that would be another step in the right direction because he lays out how archaeology shows that the ancient Hebrews were involved in stellar worship. In a way I think that best introduction to getting astrotheological studies going would be to lean on Finkelsteins work and take off from there.

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The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical. A composite of multiple "people" is no one.

The celestial Origins of Religious Belief
ZG Part 1
Jesus: Hebrew Human or Mythical Messiah?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:52 am 
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Quote:
"The big struggle in this material is to open a simple and coherent discussion of the meaning of cosmic observation in ancient myth. It is a topic that is easily derailed by many swirling subterranean cultural currents. ...many scholars provide empirical information about different religions but fail to analyse their links, especially the similarities that derive from observation of the same sky."

Thanks Robert, that summarizes much of what I was trying to say. My point was proved by the lack of mention of significant terms in the Matthews' books. That doesn't mean it's not a decent comparative religion course discussing parallels but, the fact remains that there's no focus on astrotheology at all. Another inadvertently demonstrated point is how upset people get after they've spent money on these courses only to find out later that there is so much left out, as I had just mentioned in my post on page two. Most don't take it upon themselves to study what we've always discussed here at this forum because they are not directed to do so, especially when most of the teachers themselves aren't even aware of this information. There's an endless supply of examples of this such as Dr. Forbes, a Christian, and the Skeptic Mag. trash review of Zeitgeist 1 by an atheist. Most have knee-jerk reactions to Zeitgeist 1, hence, the constant grief we get from both theists and atheists demonstrating just how utterly unaware they are of astrotheology due to no mention of it in their courses. Courses simply are not specifically teaching this type of information.

The church and its special interest groups and lobbyists made sure academia didn't teach this information way back in the day and that's what we're still up against today. That could change in our favor if people recommend, for example, Acharya's work and the Zeitgeist part 1 Sourcebook to their professors though. I think that is beginning to happen now too.

We now have Barbara Walkers' 'Man Made God' being taught in comparative religion courses, but it doesn't discuss astrotheology either. What would be great is if we could create a new course with Acharya's new 2nd edition to Christ Conspiracy. We should start another thread creating our own course that focuses on Astrotheology and the Mythicist Position. Maybe we should write our own version of Zeitgeist part 1 with a course and academia in mind that maybe they would be more willing to adopt. As pointed out in this Zeitgeist thread; it was never meant to serve as a scholarly documentary.

Quote:
"...As for this tiresome business about there being "no scholar" or "no serious scholar" who advocates the Christ Myth theory: Isn't it obvious that scholarly communities are defined by certain axioms in which grad students are trained, and that they will lose standing in those communities if they depart from those axioms? The existence of an historical Jesus is currently one of those. That should surprise no one, especially with the rightward lurch of the Society for Biblical Literature in recent years. It simply does not matter how many scholars hold a certain opinion. If one is interested in the question one must evaluate the issues and the evidence for oneself... "

- Dr. Robert M. Price, Biblical Scholar with two Ph.D's

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Scholarly Opinion
by Earl Doherty

"Why is it that no individual scholar or group of scholars has undertaken a concerted effort in recent times to discredit the mythicist position? (The brief addresses that have been made to it in various publications are outlined in my Main Article "Postscript".) In the heyday of the great mythicists of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, a few valiant efforts were offered. However, both mainstream scholarship and the mythicist branch itself have made dramatic leaps since then. Biblical research has moved into bold new territory in the last several decades: unearthing a wealth of ancient documents, arriving at a new understanding of elements like Q, the sectarian nature of early Christianity, the Cynic roots of the great Gospel teachings, and so on; an almost unprecedented "critical" dimension to New Testament scholarship has emerged.

And yet the mythicist position continues to be vilified, disdained, dismissed. We would condemn any physicist, any anthropologist, any linguist, any mathematician, any scholar of any sort who professes to work in a field that makes even a partial bow to principles of logic and scientific research who yet ignored, reviled, condemned largely without examination a legitimate, persistent theory in his or her discipline. There are tremendous problems in New Testament research, problems that have been grappled with for generations and show no sign of getting closer to solution. Agreement is lacking on countless topics, and yesterday's theories are being continually overturned. There is almost a civil war going on within the ranks of Jesus study. Why not give the mythicist option some serious consideration? Why not honestly evaluate it to see if it could provide some of the missing answers? Or, if it turns out that the case is fatally flawed, then put it to rest once and for all.

Doing that would require one essential thing: taking it seriously, approaching the subject having an open mind that the theory might have some merit. Sadly, that is the most difficult step and the one which most critics have had the greatest difficulty taking. It is all in the mindset, whether of the Christian believer whose confessional interests are overriding, or of the professional scholar who could never consider that their life's work might be fatally compromised."

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Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:41 pm 
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Tat Tvam Asi wrote:
So Mriana, were the courses more or less along the lines of Campbell-like comparative mythology? I've known people who had to read The Hero With A Thousand Faces in college. Not exactly astrotheology, but the fact that mythology includes a cosmological function is touched on. I find it strange that people respond so aggressively towards astrotheology because it's bloody obvious that all of these monolithic cultures were obsessed with the sky. I was introduced to precession and astrological symbolism in religion from reading Campbell but I didn't understand it until I went further along and found mythicist works. They definitely don't have any departments of astrotheological studies, but it doesn't seem too far of a reach to get from where they are now in comparative mythology and religion courses to a full blown astrotheological department. Like you say, a lot of the initial ground work of making connections between cultures is already there for the taking. I don't know if they're encouraging students to read Finkelstein these days, but that would be another step in the right direction because he lays out how archaeology shows that the ancient Hebrews were involved in stellar worship. In a way I think that best introduction to getting astrotheological studies going would be to lean on Finkelsteins work and take off from there.


Sort of. A lot of the comparison was with Egyptian mythology, as well as Mesopotamian, Assyrian, and others. In fact, he even shows in his books that the stories such as Marduk, flood stories, and others were taken from the surrounding myths of the time and directed at the Jews. The only thing missing, though mentioned with Samson, who was symbolic of the sun, was astrotheology, but we were given a clue, IMO, with Samson. We were given a clue to everything Acharya discusses, but it seems very few question the clues and dig deeper. I have yet to meet any of his students ask, if Samson is symbolic of the sun, what about the rest or if this story is related to Horus, what about the rest of the book? Sometimes I feel as though I am the only one who asks more questions and digs deeper.

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Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. ~ Thomas A. Edison


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