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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:54 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:46 pm 
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I'm reading an italian article, in Luxor has been discovered what the archaeologists are calling the egyptian "Cappella Sistina".

Do you know something aboutthis recent discovery?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:49 pm 
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@Free, so does that mean that all of these alleged debunkings of the Luxor nativity I see floating around on the web, are actually based on ANOTHER text?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:06 pm 
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In general yes, as well as errors such as those monumentally egregious and sloppy errors by Richard Carrier Ph.D. (which may be what you meant by another text):

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"... However, in "skimming" Brunner's text, as he puts it, Carrier has mistakenly dealt with the substantially different Hatshepsut text (Brunner's "IV D"), demonstrating an egregious error in garbling the cycles, when in fact we are specifically interested in the Luxor narrative (IV L)."

- The Nativity Scene at Luxor

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:39 pm 
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HA! It seems that the apologetic site that posted Carrier's error(to which JP over at Tekton had linked all of his "debunkings" of Luxor) has retracted the article and now all of JP's links just lead to an ad for godaddy.com. :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:50 pm 
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Thank you for pointing that out - it has happened many times before too. Tekton & many others simply do not have the integrity to be honest about these issues. They absolutely REFUSE to acknowledge that Acharya S/Murdock may be right on many issues.

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

- Upton Sinclair

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:34 pm 
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Idiots!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:53 pm 
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Richard Carrier's response: That Luxor Thing
http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/294/

As AS responds, "Parallelophobia is the particular disease of people who haven't been paying close attention." Richard's blog is just another attack on Acharya S (without ever having actually read a single book by her) for his fanboys who consider him their "hero" (rook hawkins/tom verena). Of course, he brings up Kersey Graves who has nothing to do with it at all.

Carrier is maintaining the panels are "in all essentials identical" - they are not, as she demonstrated in her book, Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection, which Carrier has obviously never read. And the details are important. Apparently, Carrier skimmed Acharya's response (which includes highly respected Egyptologists) about as well as he skimmed through Brunner's book:

Quote:
"...However, in "skimming" Brunner's text, as he puts it, Carrier has mistakenly dealt with the substantially different Hatshepsut text (Brunner's "IV D"), demonstrating an egregious error in garbling the cycles, when in fact we are specifically interested in the Luxor narrative (IV L)..."
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/luxor.html

AS also commented on FB that Carrier needs to find something else to do rather than to attack fellow mythicists, especially those who prove him wrong - is that really the most constructive thing Carrier can do with his time?

Here's a review of Christ in Egypt by Dr. Robert Price.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:45 pm 
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What I find stupid about Carrier's logic is that he's trying to propose an either or scenario - either the gospels are midrash of the OT or they are taken straight from Egyptian religion. How can they possibly NOT be both? We know all of the evidence for midrash and we know all of the evidence for an appeal to popular Egyptian motifs widespread in the region.

We know that Neith-Isis was considered "The Great Virgin" (hwnt) in pre-Christian times. We know that this "Great Virgin" was considered the mother of a God-Man. So why isn't Carrier looking to find out why Matthew was quote mining Isaiah looking specifically for something that could be used in order to claim the virgin birth of a God-Man foretold? He went into the OT with intention, clear intention. Why would he have clear intention? Well, probably because he was trying to attach a very popular motif to the Christian tradition and make it appear as sanctioned by the OT. How is it that Carrier fails to touch on this?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:02 pm 
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Good points Tat. Nicely done GA, sorry to hear you lost your original ... that's always a kick in the pants.

Of course, as one might expect, Carrier's #1 fanboy Rook Hawkins has re-posted his heroes blog:
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Defining Mythicism: Parallelomania, Luxor, and Acharya S
http://tomverenna.wordpress.com/2012/02/20/defining-mythicism-parallelomania-luxor-and-acharya-s/

I still laugh out loud when I think back when Rook claimed to be a "historian and ancient text expert" with a high school education. :lol: Rooks hatred for Acharya S and her work is a bit odd since he's apparently studying to have the same skills Acharya S has possessed since before Rook was ever born. Until ya realize he gets his info about Acharya from Carrier who also has never read a single book of hers. No need to be a Parallelophobe.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:41 am 
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Before I respond to this professionally jealous bilge - I've already got a lengthy draft - am I reading it correctly? If so, I'm astonished. Did Carrier really admit that he's been using the wrong inscription all this time? And did he then try to cover up that egregious error by claiming those who point it out are full of "nonsense?"

Imagine the brouhaha if I were writing "debunking" articles about the wrong inscription - and then if I refused to admit my extremely important error by claiming it doesn't matter and that those who point out my mistake are "nonsensical?"

Wow - that's incredibly unprofessional and unscholarly. Figures Rook would hook into such apparently shoddy scholarship.

If I've read his rant incorrectly, please let me know before I continue with my formal refutation, which at this point is quite easy.

The bottom line is that, despite all of Carrier's doubling down to cover up his egregious error and the distractions and deflections off the topic at hand, the Luxor nativity scene - especially without the text, which would not have been understood widely by the time of the Christian effort - remains highly important in Jesus mythicist and comparative religion studies.

Quote:
How is it that Carrier fails to touch on this?

He seems to be oblivious to the massive body of literature cranked out by mythicists and other Bible critics over the past several centuries. Such ignorance can hardly qualify anyone as an "expert" on Jesus mythicism.

The influence of Egypt on the Christian effort is well known, pervasive and not to be ignored by any scholar who wants to be taken seriously within the field of mythicism. If someone wishes to know more about this subject, he or she could actually read my book Christ in Egypt, rather than attacking me personally and pretending to know all about my work, without having read a single book.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:32 pm 
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Here's the latest load of crap from Carrier:

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"Jackson: I’m curious to find out what books by Acharya S/Murdock have you actually read? Did you actually read her book Christ in Egypt or no?

[Richard Carrier responds] "I have read her section on Luxor there, yes (which, BTW, does not say some of the things her defenders claim it says, so they are doing her no favors by misrepresenting her claims and arguments). Note that I am reporting what Brunner says (an actual Egyptologist), and choosing my words carefully. Make sure you actually have right what I have in fact said, before comparing it to what she said (and not just what you think she said).

But if you are reading her book, then take note of how my blog post is designed to expose her tortuous logic there. For example, note that she agrees Amun appears to the queen in the disguise of her husband at Luxor; but doesn’t explain why that makes sense unless he planned to have sex with her. Otherwise, why pretend to be her husband? Likewise, both temples were constructed by the same person and thus cannot plausibly be telling two completely different religious stories, yet one of them (the longer redaction) is sexual, as even Murdock admits. So she has to hope you don’t notice that, in effect, the same author told two radically different versions of the same story at the same time for no reason. And so on. So it’s important to notice what she avoids talking about, as much as what she attempts to argue."

- So, saying "I have read her section on Luxor there, yes" doesn't actually claim he read the book, which implies he probably didn't but doesn't want to admit it. Why couldn't he have been categorically clear and just say, "Yes, I read the Luxor section from the book." He may have even gotten glimpses of that section from Google books rather than the book, which leaves out quite a bit. I mention it here because Carrier's goes on and on about Dr. Brunner in such a way that Carrier seems oblivious to the fact that Acharya read Brunner's book and that's where much of her information on this issue came from. If Carrier actually read the book or even the online article he would know that Acharya cites Dr. Brunner and several other Egyptologists. So, to me, Carrier's blog comes off as disingenuous. He doesn't substantiate a single claim he makes with any source citations to back up his claims.

- (From the article) "She simply cites other people making the same mistake she did, as if a mistake many people make ceases to be a mistake, which is a non sequitur. "

Is Carrier claiming Brunner made a mistake? Because Acharya provides commentary from Brunner as well, which even the article explains. In fact, that's how she figured out Carrier was looking at the wrong scene. The error is Carrier's and he just can't admit it.

- (From the article) "Brunner himself agrees with me in concluding that the narrative depicts sex"

How exactly does Egyptologist, Dr. Hellmut Brunner agree with you when he died in 1997? Acharya cites several Egyptologists, including Brunner, in which they demonstrate Carrier to be in error. Is Carrier claiming everyone else is wrong and that only Carrier has it right?

- Not sure what Carrier is even referring to regarding "defenders ... are doing her no favors by misrepresenting her claims and arguments" since he gave no examples. Same with "not just what you think she said."

- "both temples were constructed by the same person"

Notice Carrier provides no source for this claim?

- "(the longer redaction) is sexual, as even Murdock admits. So she has to hope you don’t notice that"

If Carrier read the article careful enough he'd notice that she discusses that so, the claim that she hopes one won't notice is just dumb.

-----------

I haven't had time to address the article yet so, I guess I'll start here:

Quote:
RC: "There is sex in the scene and plenty of lurid details, pillow talk, and everything I say, couched in the coy terms of ancient writers"

So, there's sex scenes, lurid details of it, plus, pillow talk and everything else Carrier says? Right after that Carrier then says:

Quote:
RC: "one should not obsess on whether Egyptian iconography depicts beds the way you see them at a Sears showroom, or whether pillow talk actually involves pillows. That’s just silly. It’s the words that describe what is going on. And the words say in effect just what I said they do. That I relate them into modern analogs is besides the point."

So, Carrier is categorically clear that he concedes that the Egyptian iconography at Luxor shows no sex scenes. At least that's a start.

Quote:
RC: "The D text she refers to is the narrative accompanying the panels at the Deir el-Bahri Temple Complex built by Queen Hatshepsut in the 15th century BC. The Luxor Temple was built at the same time by the same queen."

Notice Carrier never cites a source to substantiate his claim regarding both temples being built at the same time by the same person? We've all heard the phrase: "Rome wasn't built in a day." Neither were the Deir el-Bahri Temple Complex nor Luxor.

More later.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:01 pm 
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I posted the following comment on Richard Carrier's blog. This is the first communication I have had with him.

Dear Richard,
I read your comments here with interest after seeing them discussed at Acharya's freethoughtnation site. I led a discussion on her book Christ In Egypt at booktalk.org, where this theme of Egyptian parallels was discussed in depth.
There is a pervasive prejudice against discussion of Egyptian mythic sources for Christianity due to cultural factors and associations that are not readily recognised. These factors, seen in the history of Egyptian studies going back at least to the Renaissance, have led to an academic bias that endangers the reputation of anyone who studies this material. Yet parallels such as Osiris=Lazarus, Isis=Mary, Horus=Jesus, Set=Satan and Anubis=John have abundant evidence to support them.
The Jesus Myth Theory addresses deep cultural problems in Western civilization. Egyptian parallels are at the center of these problems. Lightly dismissing them distorts the analysis of the theological basis of the Gospels.
Acharya has investigated this material with integrity, courage, depth and rigour. She has uncovered some intriguing material on the history of suppression of evidence, explained in detail in Christ in Egypt. I'm glad to see you have opened this dialogue, however circumspectly. I hope your engagement will lead to broader scholarly discussion of Egyptian sources in Christianity.
Robert Tulip


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:44 pm 
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Acharya wrote:
I've already got a lengthy draft


How's that response going, by the way?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:46 pm 
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She hasn't had any time to work on it at all anymore. She's just completely disgusted with Carrier and his little circle-jerk. She hasn't decided if Carrier's rant is worthy of a response at all. She's not inspired or motivated to take the time to address it at this point. Dealing with Carrier just seems like a waste of time right now. His Luxor rant is disingenuous. He didn't provide a single source to substantiate his claims beyond Brunner's book. I know for a fact that Acharya read Brunner's book. I just cannot believe that Carrier read Christ in Egypt. I think he's lying when he gives the impression that he did read Christ in Egypt.

It's sad to see Carrier still attacking Acharya when she has never done a damn thing to him beyond respond to his jealous attacks. He could've made an attempt to contact her rather than insist on making her out to be some sort of enemy. I hate that ass-hat for that.

I still wonder if part of the reason he posted that Luxor thing was because he's about to start a little book tour. Hoping it might garner him some badly needed attention. If anybody was reading, discussing and quoting from his books he wouldn't be so desperate for attention. If it weren't for that movie: "The God Who Wasn't There," nobody would know who Richard Carrier was. He's done nothing interesting since then. I mean, how smart can he really be when it took him so long to finally get his Ph.D. (nearly 10 years?). Then, the first book he writes, while the ink is still wet on his Ph.D., was a response to low-life, bottom barrel scum, JP Holding? I've read Carrier's books and they're as boring and uninteresting as could be, which is probably why so few talk about his books much. That's why I think he's just jealous of Acharya. She's a better writer and her work is far more interesting. She gets quite a bit of positive feedback and her 1st book, Christ Conspiracy (1999) is still one of AUP's best selling books 12 years later. People are still talking about that book and the rest of her work and Carrier can't stand it. Carrier's jealous that nobody made a video significantly using his work that caught the attention of well over 200 million views worldwide with translated subtitles in over 30 languages i.e. Zeitgeist Part 1.

Anyway, she's trying to get several other important and timely things done right now. So, I doubt she posts a response any time soon, unfortunately. I haven't had time to get back to it either. But, we certainly encourage anyone else here to chime in. Maybe that would inspire Acharya to finish her response sooner rather than later.

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