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 Post subject: Re: The Jesus Challenge
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:26 pm 
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TedMann wrote:
FreeThinkAluva said: "nor can they [Christians] provide any valid primary source evidence for even a historical Jesus, let alone the biblical Jesus who was the son of god who did and said all of those things the bible claims.

Reply: The New Testament documents are the primary source information we have about Christ. These are Greek manuscripts coming out of the first century.

LOL, even Christian New Testament scholars disagree with you:

Quote:
"The Gospels are neither histories nor biographies, even within the ancient tolerances for those genres."

- Dr. John Dominic Crossan

TedMann wrote:
In The Journal of the American Academy of Religion (vol. 68, 2000), Mark Allan Powell said that the dominant view among New Testament scholars is therefore that the Passion narratives are early and based on eyewitness testimony.

Actually, there were many Passion narratives and plays long prior to the creation of Christianity, for example: The Passion of Baal/Bel/"Marduk's Ordeal"

TedMann wrote:
MANUSCRIPT EVIDENCE:

Caesars Gallic War: 9 or 10 good copies.
The Roman historian, Livy, 20 copies.
Tacitus Annals, 2.
Thucydides history, 8.
Homers Iliad has 643 manuscript copies (most documented secular work).
New Testament, over 5300.

Quote:
The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, remarks:

"The NT [New Testament] is now known, in whole or in part, in nearly five thousand Greek MSS [manuscripts] alone. Every one of these handwritten copies differs from every other one ... It has been estimated that these MSS and quotations differ among themselves between 150,000 and 250,000 times. The actual figure is, perhaps, much higher..."

"...A study of 150 Greek MSS of the Gospel of Luke has revealed more than 30,000 different readings ... It is safe to say that there is not one sentence in the NT in which the MS tradition is wholly uniform."

"...Many thousands of the variants which are found in the MSS of the NT were put there deliberately. They are not merely the result of error or of careless handling of the text. Many were created for theological or dogmatic reasons… It is because the books of the NT are religious books, sacred books, canonical books, that they were changed to conform to what the copyist believed to be the true reading."

- Who Was Jesus?, pages 48/49

* The TID is a conservative Christian authority "Text, NT," v. 4; 594-595

So, as you may have figured out, this is just one example of how Christian apologists utilize all these different readings even of the same books to claim: '...more evidence for Jesus than any other famous figures in history'

Here's an image of the list of evidence between Jesus and Caesar

Image

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 Post subject: Re: The Jesus Challenge
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:51 pm 
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Quote:
"The only definite account of his life and teachings is contained in the four Gospels of the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. All other historical records of the time are silent about him. The brief mentions of Jesus in the writings of Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius have been generally regarded as not genuine and as Christian interpolations; in Jewish writings there is no report about Jesus that has historical value. Some scholars have even gone so far as to hold that the entire Jesus story is a myth…"

- The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia

From a former preacher of 20 years:

Quote:
"During the 19 years I preached the Gospel, the resurrection of Jesus was the keystone of my ministry.[1] Every Easter I affirmed the Apostle Paul's admonition: "If Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation has been in vain and your faith has been in vain."[2] I wrote a popular Easter musical called "His Fleece Was White As Snow" with the joyous finale proclaiming: "Sing Hosanna! Christ is Risen! The Son has risen to shine on me!"[3]

But now I no longer believe it. Many bible scholars[4] and ministers--including one third of the clergy in the Church of England[5]--reject the idea that Jesus bodily came back to life. So do 30% of born-again American Christians!"

- Did Jesus Really Rise From The Dead?


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Dan Barker: Did Jesus Really Rise From the Dead?




Religion and the Ph.D.: A Brief History

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 Post subject: Re: The Jesus Challenge
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:45 am 
Richard Dawkins himself admits that Jesus lived. In his debate with John Lennox, Dawkins said that most historians believe Jesus lived, with the exception of one or two. And then later he said that Jesus did live. He makes his comments about this somewhere after 30 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9t6Fkhu_MA

Principle of enemy attestation: what your enemy admits is usually true.

I don't have the time right now to respond to the other comments on this thread. Be back later.


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 Post subject: Re: The Jesus Challenge
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:21 am 
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Richard Dawkins has never been the "goto guy" on these subjects as he's a biologist not any sort of theologian, astronomer, mythologist or astrotheologian. Just because Dawkins may have said Jesus may have existed doesn't mean squat because he does so DESPITE the evidence not because of it. Btw, Dawkins is nobody's enemy - that's your bigotry talking again.

Quote:
"It is even possible to mount a serious, though not widely supported, historical case that Jesus never lived at all, as has been done by, among others Professor G. A. Wells of the University of London in a number of books, including Did Jesus Exist? Although Jesus probably existed."

- Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, p.122

Quote:
"I think it's important to realize that when two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly halfway between them. It is possible for one side to be simply wrong"

Richard Dawkins' Evolution"

- The Agnostic Fallacy

Richard Dawkins on Christmas and Zeitgeist Part 1

A must read: Religion and the Ph.D.: A Brief History

* The fact that you have yet to read a single link or book for which this forum is the subject of is noted. You sir, are only here to troll and spread your Christian bigotry, that's all. You clearly have zero interest in having any kind of discussion on the facts and evidence that proves your Christian ideology false. Here at this forum, we are especially interested in credible evidence that actually exists regardless of where it may lead. You might do yourself a favor and take a class on critical thinking and methods to learn how to evaluate evidence.

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 Post subject: Re: The Jesus Challenge
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:04 pm 
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Richard Carrier's Acts as Historical Fiction

30:20 two prison breaks:

* Euripides, Bacchae

* Acts 12 & 16

31 Paul as Odysseus

44:10 John = io-annes "Yahweh is gracious"

46:35 "Acts is a fake history"

* Lacks key markers of being a real history

* Has all the markers of being a fictional novel

* Lies about the historical facts / makes key mistakes

* Narratives are historically implausible

* Invents stories according to literary needs

* Copies other fake stories (even his own)

end of lecture

Q & A at 48:35

51:10 Josephus never mentions Jesus; both passages are Christian interpolations

51:30 Tacitus also never mentioned Jesus = another Xian forgery - not usable as evidence

at around 58:40 ish Carrier admits that there were a few early Christians admitting Jesus was a myth around the early 2nd century & possibly earlier.


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 Post subject: Re: The Jesus Challenge
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:38 pm 
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Here's a really well done video explaining how the god Serapis of Egypt was utilized in the creation of Jesus as Acharya S has mentioned. It would've been nice if they asked Acharya to be in their documentary, "The Forgotten Christ" but, nope. Maybe somebody will contact them and ask them about it?

Serapis Christ



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Image


I'm reminded of her clip from the "God in the Box" documentary, clip of Acharya at 2:05 through 2:45



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 Post subject: Re: The Jesus Challenge
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:18 pm 
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1500 Year Old Bible Claims Jesus Was Never Crucified

Blog: Is the Vatican in shock over a ‘newly discovered’ Bible that says Jesus wasn’t crucified?

http://www.latintimes.com/1500-year-old ... ied-171471

The Gospel of Barnabas Predicts The Coming of Prophet Muhammed


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 Post subject: Re: The Jesus Challenge
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:57 pm 
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Jesus Never Existed Says New Report That Finds No Mention Of Christ In 126 Historical Texts

Image

Quote:
Conclusion

"... When I consider those 126 writers, all of whom should have heard of Jesus but did not—and Paul and Marcion and Athenagoras and Matthew with a tetralogy of opposing Christs, the silence from Qumran and Nazareth and Bethlehem, conflicting Bible stories, and so many other mysteries and omissions—I must conclude that Christ is a mythical character. Jesus of Nazareth was nothing more than an urban (or desert) legend, likely an agglomeration of several evangelic and deluded rabbis who might have existed.

I also include in my book similarities of Jesus to earlier God-sons such as Sandan and Mithra and Horus and Attis, too striking to disregard. The Oxford Classical Dictionary and Catholic Encyclopedia, as well as many others, corroborate.

Thus, today I side with Remsburg—and with Frank Zindler, John M. Allegro, Godfrey Higgins, Robert M. Price, Salomon Reinach, Samuel Lublinski, Charles-François Dupuis, Allard Pierson, Rudolf Steck, Arthur Drews, Prosper Alfaric, Georges Ory, Tom Harpur, Michael Martin, John Mackinnon Robertson, Alvar Ellegård, David Fitzgerald, Richard Carrier, René Salm, Timothy Freke, Peter Gandy, Barbara Walker, Michael Martin, D.M. Murdock, Thomas Brodie, Earl Doherty, Thomas L. Thompson, Bruno Bauer, and others—heretics and iconoclasts and freethinking dunces all, it would seem."

The Fable of the Christ by Michael B. Paulkovich
https://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php/articles/5656

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 Post subject: Re: The Jesus Challenge
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:04 pm 
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Image

Quote:
"My point, once again, is not that those ancient people told literal stories and we are now smart enough to take them symbolically but, that they told them symbolically and we are now dumb enough to take them literally. They knew what they were doing; we don't."

- Dr. John Dominic Crossan, page 79 (1996 edition) Who Is Jesus?

Dr. Crossan is Professor Emeritus of Biblical Studies at DePaul University in Chicago, Illinois and is a major figure in the fields of biblical archaeology, anthropology and New Testament textual and higher criticism. He is especially vocal in the field of Historical Jesus studies and is generally acknowledged to be the premier historical Jesus scholar in the world.

This article and book essentially prove Dr. Crossan's point true: Star Worship of the Ancient Israelites

The point Dr. Crossan is making is essentially the same thing Acharya S is saying below:

Quote:
"The "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament is a fictional compilation of characters, not a single historical individual. A compilation of multiple "people" is no one. When the mythological and midrashic layers are removed, there remains no historical core to the onion. The evidence reveals that the gospel story is myth historicized, not history mythologized."

— D.M. Murdock/Acharya S

Jesus Christ is a mythical figure

Image



https://www.facebook.com/acharyas/posts ... 0718840604

https://www.facebook.com/acharyasanning ... 55/?type=1

https://www.facebook.com/MythicistMKE/p ... 9214047553

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php? ... 9798837276

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Blog: Jesus Christ is a mythical figure

New research exposes hidden relationship between Jesus and John the Baptist

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 Post subject: Re: The Jesus Challenge
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:22 am 
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Blog: The Great Jesus Debate goes mainstream

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 Post subject: Re: The Jesus Challenge
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:42 pm 
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DEBATE on the Historicity of Jesus - Dr. Richard Carrier vs Trent Horn



Skip to 7:30 to start with Trent Horn

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 Post subject: Re: The Jesus Challenge
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:43 pm 
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New Blog: Bart Ehrman errs again – this time about virgin births

Did the historical Jesus exist -Bart Ehrman (2.5 minute)


At 1:55 (or 53:13 in the full version) you can hear Ehrman claim:

Quote:
"I think that atheists have done themselves a disservice by jumping on the bandwagon of mythicism because, frankly, it makes you look foolish to the outside world."
– Bart Ehrman

Image




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New Blog by Acharya S: Bart Ehrman caught in lies and libel?

Image

Book: Ehrman and the Quest of the Historical Jesus

Religion and the Ph.D.: A Brief History


"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

- Upton Sinclair


It's frustrating that the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) will invite Bart Ehrman for a lecture and even give him an award but, refuse to invite Acharya S/Murdock for a lecture or their radio show or anything. I have lost loads of confidence in the FFRF and other secular organizations who refuse to invite Murdock - THAT is the true "disservice" here. She should be invited to speak at every major freethought and mythicist lecture event like Skepticon for example. Supporters of Murdock's work need to start putting in requests for her to speak at lectures.

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 Post subject: Re: The Jesus Challenge
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:37 pm 
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A new article by Acharya S, peer reviewed by a 40-year scholar and renowned expert in linguistics: "one of the pioneers who worked on the Proto-Indo-European linguistic theory positing that Indian and European languages derive from the same remote, prehistoric root":

Josephus’s Testimonium Flavianum Examined Linguistically: Greek Analysis Demonstrates the Passage a Forgery In Toto

New Blog: Jesus passage in Josephus a forgery in toto, says Greek expert

For further reading:

Does Josephus prove a historical Jesus?
http://freethoughtnation.com/does-josep ... cal-jesus/

Josephus mentions nearly 20 Jesus’s & none turn out to be the NT Jesus
viewtopic.php?p=26427#p26427

Does Suetonius refer to Jesus?
http://freethoughtnation.com/does-sueto ... -to-jesus/

http://www.truthbeknown.com/suetoniuschresto.html

Christos or Chrestos?
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=3900

viewtopic.php?p=26937#p26937

Isis the Chrēst
http://www.truthbeknown.com/isis-the-chrest.html

Pliny, Tacitus and Suetonius: No Proof of Jesus
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2442

The Jesus Forgery: Josephus Untangled, thread
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2441

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 Post subject: Re: The Jesus Challenge
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:57 pm 
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New blog: Rabbi: Did Jesus actually exist?

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 Post subject: Re: The Jesus Challenge
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:39 pm 
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The latest video from Ken Humphreys:

The New Apologists -- Last defenders of the "historical Jesus"


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