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 Post subject: Dying and Rising Gods
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:16 pm 
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Dying and Rising Gods

Now here's a big subject that is widely and wildly debated within the world of Christian apologetics. Naturally, the goal of the apologists is simply to dismiss the fact that pre-Christian savior gods died and rose from the dead. Of course, they do this without scholarship on their side and in an attempt to remove the debate from view by merely denying the evidence.

For example, in order to deny the death and resurrection of Osiris, apologists split hairs and try to make it appear as if the concept is very different from that of Jesus Christ. It is not. It is exactly the same thing: The god dies and rises from death. The whole goal of the Egyptian mortuary/funerary literature is to allow for the deceased to rise from the dead, in a glorified body, which is virtually the same concept as found in Christianity. The idea of death and resurrection was constant in the Egyptian religion. The hundreds of millions people who followed the religion undoubtedly interpreted this death-and-resurrection in precisely the same was as the Christians do today. The denial of this major aspect of Egyptian religion is simply a form of ignorance and bigotry, frankly.

In reality, we possess thousands of Egyptian texts designed for the precise reason of allowing for the deceased - called "the Osiris" - to rise from the dead. By the time of the Coffin Texts - First Intermediate Period (2181-2041 BCE) - even non-royals were expecting to rise from the dead, in a physical but glorified body. Eventually, ALL followers of the Egyptian religion anticipated being "the Osiris" and rising from the dead - exactly as had their god before them.

Osiris's death and resurrection were undoubtedly emulated by the creators of the Christian myth. Apologetics will simply dishonestly squirm around this one, in a desperate attempt to demonstrate that Christianity is not plagiarized in large part from the Egyptian religion. As my book Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection demonstrates, the major contentions regarding Horus/Osiris as found here and in my other works are true and accurate, and can be discovered in the Egyptian primary sources, which long predate the Christian era.

In any event, we also find this concept of the dying-and-rising god in the Bible itself. At Ezekiel 8:14, we read:

Quote:
Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD'S house which [was] toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.

Concerning this Pagan god Tammuz, for whom the Israelite women are weeping, Christian commentator Matthew Henry remarks:

Quote:
Women weeping for Tammuz, v. 14. An abominable thing indeed, that any should choose rather to serve an idol in tears than to serve the true God with joyfulness and gladness of heart! Yet such absurdities as these are those guilty of who follow after lying vanities and forsake their own mercies. Some think it was for Adonis, an idol among the Greeks, other for Osiris, an idol of the Egyptians, that they shed these tears. The image, they say, was made to weep, and then the worshippers wept with it. They bewailed the death of this Tammuz, and anon rejoiced in its returning to life again.

Notice: "...anon rejoiced in its returning to life again." Note also the comparison of Tammuz with Adonis and Osiris. It appears obvious to this Christian commentator Henry that Osiris's death and resurrection were much the same as that of Tammuz - a return to life.

Regarding the same passage, Christian commentators Jamieson, Fausset & Brown also remark:

Quote:
Tammuz--from a Hebrew root, "to melt down." Instead of weeping for the national sins, they wept for the idol. Tammuz (the Syrian for Adonis), the paramour of Venus, and of the same name as the river flowing from Lebanon; killed by a wild boar, and, according to the fable, permitted to spend half the year on earth, and obliged to spend the other half in the lower world. An annual feast was celebrated to him in June (hence called Tammuz in the Jewish calendar) at Byblos, when the Syrian women, in wild grief, tore off their hair and yielded their persons to prostitution, consecrating the hire of their infamy to Venus; next followed days of rejoicing for his return to the earth; the former feast being called "the disappearance of Adonis," the latter, "the finding of Adonis." This Phoenician feast answered to the similar Egyptian one in honor of Osiris. The idea thus fabled was that of the waters of the river and the beauties of spring destroyed by the summer during the half year when the sun is in the upper heat. Or else, the earth being clothed with beauty, hemisphere, and losing it when he departs to the lower. The name Adonis is not here used, as Adon is the appropriated title of Jehovah.

Note: "the disappearance of Adonis" and "the finding of Adonis."

Fast forward to the modern era, the esteemed Christian Pastor Chuck Smith comments on Ezekiel 8:14:

Quote:
Now, Tammuz was a Babylonian god. He was the god of resurrection. He was worshipped in the springtime as the trees would come into blossom. They would morn [sic] for Tammuz in the fall as the leaves were dying on the trees and the trees were going bare and all; they would weep for Tammuz. But then in the springtime when the trees would begin to bud and blossom and all again, they would have great parties and they would decorate eggs and celebrate the resurrection of Tammuz, because now we have new life. The new life of spring is around us and the egg is a symbol of perpetuated life, because it's through the egg that the little birds or chicks or whatever are hatched. And so it's a symbol of the perpetuating of life. And so, they would take the eggs and color them, draw on them, and would have these parties with the colored eggs celebrating the resurrection of Tammuz.

Any similarity is far from coincidental. The church unfortunately adopted the pagan practice of the worship of Tammuz and the resurrection of Tammuz and incorporated it into the church, calling it Easter. And having an Easter Sunday, taking the name of the Greek goddess Astarte who was supposed to be the consort of Adonis, who is the Greek equivalent to Tammuz. And we have incorporated into the church and there are churches that have Easter egg hunts and give baskets of colored eggs to the children and all at Easter time, Astarte.

In the early church we don't read of them celebrating the resurrection of Christ on any particular day, but because the pagans were all celebrating in this pagan worship of Tammuz, and they had this day which they acclaimed the resurrection and all in the springtime, the church didn't want their people to feel left out. And so, they said, "This is the day that Jesus rose, and we'll color the eggs and do the same bit, but we're celebrating now the resurrection of Jesus."

Now, how about that? Not only do we have a dying-and-rising savior god centuries prior to the Christian era, but it's HIS resurrection that is celebrated at "Easter," not that of Jesus!

According to the Bible, then, the Pagans and Israelites very much celebrated the death and resurrection of a god, centuries before Christianity was created!

Poor Pastor Smith is flummoxed by this parallel, as he next says, "I am not certain what the Lord thinks about that. I wonder." He then raises the issue in Ezekiel (8:16) of the Israelites worshipping the sun.

Quote:
And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, [were] about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.

Obviously, the Israelites like their neighbors the Babylonians, Canaanites and Egyptians, were very much engaged in astrotheology.

There is much more to this story, and the blanket apologist denials from ignorance will not suffice to make it disappear.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:44 pm 
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Acharya, your work on this particular sector of the "god myths" is, to my way of thinking, so eye-opening I cannot see how anyone could not be convinced lacking, of course, childhood brainwashing.

When I first read "The Christ Conspiracy," I was particularly taken by this facet of your work. Being a specialist in military history, I had never taken much of a look into the history of myth. Your work here is astounding and anyone with an open mind and a half-dozen working brain cells can see the truth it portends.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:47 pm 
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So common was the belief in resurrection that the dying-and-rising motif in Egypt serves as the basis for their religious beliefs, much as it does within Christianity. Indeed, with study it becomes evident that Christianity is a poorer rehash of the Egyptian religion, which I demonstrate quite abundantly in my book Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection.

The concept of resurrection, renewal and rebirth can be found throughout the ancient Egyptian texts, based on the myth of Osiris himself being resurrected by Horus. As such, the priest in the texts often plays the role of Horus raising the deceased, who is "the Osiris," "Osiris N" (where "N" is the name of the deceased) or just plain "Osiris."

Regarding the Pyramid Texts, Dr. Carol Andrews, Curator of Egyptian Antiquities at the British Museum, remarks:

Quote:
Some of the Pyramid Text utterances are hymns and addresses to various gods or magical recitations to assure the royal resurrection and protection from malign influences.

(Faulkner/Andrews, The Egyptian Book of the Dead, p. 11.)

As Dr. James Allen states in The Ancient Egyptian Pyramid Texts, "The Pyramid Texts contain three major groups of such spells: the Offering and Insignia Rituals, the Resurrection Ritual, and the Morning Ritual." (Allen, 5.)

Allen also says, "The Resurrection Ritual served to release the ba [soul] from its attachment to the mummified body, and the personal spells gave it the means to overcome the hazards of the nightly journey to rebirth and to join the gods in the new life." (Allen, 8.)

The expectation of the ancient Egyptians was very similar to that of Christians, who believe that they will receive a spiritual or "glorified" body in order to live eternally: "Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven." (1 Cor 15:49)

As part of "The Resurrection Ritual," the priest/Horus says to the deceased/Osiris, "Ho, Unis! You have not gone away dead: you have gone away alive." (Allen, 31.) The subtitle of this spell is "Invocation to a New Life." This resurrection to a new life appears in a PRIMARY SOURCE text some 4,000 years old.

Here "Unis" is the name of the deceased king/pharaoh of this particular Pyramid Text. The ritual continues at length and is designed to revere the king/pharaoh/Osiris as an "imperishable star."

There is much more about the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD in the Pyramid Texts, as can be seen from page 217 of Allen's book.

Here the priest/Horus exhorts the deceased/Osiris to "Stand up!" which is the terminology for rising from the dead.

Regarding the Book of the Dead, Egyptologist Dr. Ogden Goelet states:

Quote:
The Book of the Dead promised resurrection to all mankind, as a reward for righteous living, long before Judaism and Christianity embraced that concept.

Faulkner, The Egyptian Book of the Dead, p. 18.

Goelet also says:

Quote:
The Egyptian afterlife, like many Egyptian conceptions, was characterized by a contrasting duality: a chthonic netherworld presided over by Osiris, Lord of Resurrection, and a solar/astral experience, in which the sun god Re was supreme.

Faulkner, EBD, 15.

Concerning the first chapter/spell of the Book of the Dead, Sir Peter le Page Renouf, a Keeper of the Egyptology Department at the British Museum, says in reference to "Words which bring about Resurrection and Glory," as rendered in the rubric of the chapter, "The 'raising up" or 'resurrection' here spoken of is said not only of the soul but of the body of the deceased person." (Renouf, 3.)

Chapter/spell 177 in the BD is entitled, "Chapter for raising up a spirit and causing a soul to live in the God's Domain." (Faulkner, EBD, 131.)

Chapter/spell 178 in the BD is entitled, "Chapter for raising the corpse..." (Faulkner, EBD, 131.)

Regarding his translation of the Book of the Dead, Sir Dr. E.A. Wallis Budge relates that his work is an attempt "to illustrate from native Egyptian sources the religious views of the wonderful people who more than five thousand years ago proclaimed the resurrection of a spiritual body and the immortality of the soul." (Budge, EBD, vi.)

In a section entitled, "Persistence of the legend of Osiris and the belief in the resurrection," Budge remarks that "we find that the doctrine of eternal life and of the resurrection of a glorified or transformed body, based upon the ancient story of Osiris after a cruel death and horrible mutilation, inflicted by the powers of evil, was the same in all periods..." (Budge, EBD, xlviii.)

Budge also says that "in texts of all periods, the life, sufferings, death and resurrection of Osiris are accepted as facts universally admitted." (Budge, EBD, xlix.)

Osiris's resurrection represents the hope for the same fate for the deceased, and he is thus called "Lord of Resurrection," "Lord of Resurrections" and "the god of the resurrection." (Budge, EBD, liv.)

Concerning the example of Osiris's resurrection, Budge also says:

Quote:
There is...no doubt that from first to last the Egyptians firmly believed that besides the soul there was some other element of the man that would rise again. The preservation of the corruptible body too was in some way connected with the life of the world to come, and its preservation was necessary to ensure eternal life; otherwise the prayers recited to this end would have been futile, and the time honoured custom of mummifying the dead would have had no meaning. The never ending existence of the soul is asserted in a passage...without reference to Osiris; but the frequent mention of the uniting of his bones, and of the gathering together of his members, and the doing away with all corruption from his body, seems to show that the pious Egyptian connected these things with the resurrection of his own body in some form, and he argued that what had been done for him who was proclaimed to be giver and source of life must be necessary for mortal man.

The physical body of man considered as a whole was called khat..., a word which seems to be connected with the idea of something which is liable to decay. The word is also applied to the mummified body in the tomb, as we know from the words, "My body (khat) is buried." Such a body was attributed to the god Osiris; and in the CLXIInd Chapter of the Book of the Dead "his great divine body rested in Annu." In this respect the god and the deceased were on an equality. As we have seen above, the body never leaves the tomb nor reappears on earth; yet its preservation was necessary....

Budge, EBD, lviii-lix

The Egyptian religion was every bit as profound and spiritual as Christianity - in fact, far more so, as Christianity represents a watered-down form designed to appeal to the masses at large.

By the time of Christianity was created, some one half a BILLION Egyptians had been mummified, presumably many of them receiving the last rites using the many, ubiquitous spells and hymns from the Pyramid Texts, Book of the Dead and Coffin Texts designed to resurrect the deceased into eternal life.

We are thus talking about hundreds of millions of Osirises raised from the dead. Again, the denial of this massive religious history of Egypt constitutes ignorance and cultural bigotry.

[Added 6/29/2012]

As concerns the hairsplitting apology that attempts to differentiate Osiris from Jesus because Osiris's resurrection took place in the underworld, and he did not return to Earth, the mythological fact is that Osiris most assuredly does return to the land of the living, on a regular basis in precisely the same manner as Jesus allegedly "visits" people to this day, both in visions and, on occasion, it is claimed, in the flesh. Indeed, in Plutarch (De Iside 19) we learn that after his death Osiris instructs his son, Horus, on how to destroy his murderer, Seth:

Quote:
Later, as they relate, Osiris came to Horus from the other world and exercised and trained him for the battle.

The original Greek is:

Quote:
ἔπειτα τῷ Ὥρῳ τὸν Ὄσιριν ἐξ Ἅιδου παραγενόμενον διαπονεῖν ἐπὶ τὴν μάχην καὶ ἀσκεῖν

The Greek word here for "other world" is Ἅιδου or Hades, the land of the dead from which a number of other heroes were said to have emerged back into "real life." We can name Orpheus and Persephone, among others, who emerged or rose from the underworld/Hades. In Christian tradition too, Jesus is said to descend into HADES before reemerging into the "real world" to train his disciples for spiritual battle. (See the Apocryphon of John and Gospel of Nicodemus) Like these figures, Jesus brings others out of the underworld as well.

Since this story constitutes myth, not "history," it is irrelevant whether or not Osiris "really" came from the other world and whether or not it was "only" in a vision or in the flesh. The bottom line is that Osiris, once dead, is alive again, that he contacts humanity from the "Great Beyond" or heaven and that he emerges from Hades, precisely as in Christian tradition concerning Jesus. The "Jesus Christ" character of the New Testament is significantly Osiris Judaized. This sort of priestcraft has happened continually since time immemorial and is not difficult to fathom when examining the ancient myths of other cultures.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:02 pm 
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Notice Achrya still has failed to produce PRIMARY SOURCE EVIDENCE for her claims before AD 150. She can claim all she wants. Produce the evidence!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:14 pm 
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Dates of Ancient Egyptian Texts

In their ignorance of history, Christian apologists appear to be oblivious to the obvious fact that the ancient Egyptian texts predate the common era by hundreds to thousands of years. Note that I start this thread with a discussion of the BIBLICAL passage regarding Tammuz. The Old Testament both predates the common era and is considered a "primary source." Naturally, those who have not studied the subject will continue to repeat falsehoods denying these pre-Christian primary source texts.

Pyramid Texts - c. 2000 BCE at the latest
Coffin Texts - c. 2000 BCE
Book of the Dead - c. 1600 BCE

In these voluminous texts, which number over 1,000 chapters, spells or hymns, appears continual talk about RESURRECTION from the dead, as we can see from my previous post - in which I quote PRIMARY SOURCES from 4,000 years ago. I even linked to the original text so that others can read it. The translation of the Pyramid Texts, for example, is by one of the most respected Egyptologists of all time, Dr. James P. Allen.

Notice how this post - and the thousands of other pages I have produced on the same subject - has been completely ignored by the desperate Christian apologist. And that is the only way that such individuals can operate: To ignore every bit of evidence and to keep repeating the same falsehoods. We also note how the apologist does not know my work to be making such entirely erroneous claims about it.

As we can see from this example, Christian apologists do not even read the responses to their robotic requests but plow along as if no response was forthcoming. Obviously, we can see the dishonesty and shamelessness here - a prime example, in fact, as it is quite evident this person did not even read the posts in this thread before making erroneous remarks. This person provides a perfect example demonstrated all over the internet of the fallacies and inability to examine the evidence demonstrated as it is provided. He has not read what I provided but merely repeated the same falsehoods.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:41 pm 
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Here is an illustration of the very ancient myth of Horus raising Osiris from the dead. This illoe is from Budge's OSIRIS AND THE EGYPTIAN RESURRECTION, II, p. 83.

Image

Here is another ancient Egyptian image of Horus raising Osiris from the dead, this time from Rev. Dr. J.P. Lundy's Monumental Christianity, p. 403.

Image

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:25 am 
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I've got to get my hands on those texts. sigh. I do have the Book of the Dead waiting for me to buy on Amazon. However, now is not a good time to snag it. Too many things that are more stressing at this time. Of course, if the economy starts to suck anymore than what it is now, I don't think anyone is going to be getting non-necessities for a while. Even my Trek collection has ceased to populate. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:13 am 
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Acharya wrote:

In their ignorance of history, Christian apologists appear to be oblivious to the obvious fact that the ancient Egyptian texts predate the common era by hundreds to thousands of years

TND Mettinger is not even a Christian. Obviously you have not read his book "THE RIDDLE OF RESURRECTION," where he states that it is the consensus of scholars today, nearly universal, that there were no dying and rising god's that preceeded Christianity. They all post date the first century.

No one disputes the antiquity of Egyptian texts. What we dispute is the claim that there are any primary sources before Christ showing a dying and rising god in those texts.
Acharya wrote:
Note that I start this thread with a discussion of the BIBLICAL passage regarding Tammuz. The Old Testament both predates the common era and is considered a "primary source." Naturally, those who have not studied the subject will continue to repeat falsehoods denying these pre-Christian primary source texts.

Show us a passage in Scripture (chapter and verse) that shows Tammuz dying and rising.

Acharya wrote:
Pyramid Texts - c. 2000 BCE at the latest
Coffin Texts - c. 2000 BCE
Book of the Dead - c. 1600 BCE

Yes, but none of those sources have dying and rising god's.

Acharya wrote:
In these voluminous texts, which number over 1,000 chapters, spells or hymns, appears continual talk about RESURRECTION from the dead, as we can see from my previous post - in which [b]I quote PRIMARY SOURCES from 4,000 years ago

Show us just one primary source text and quote of a dying and resurrected god that pre-dates the Christian era.

Acharya wrote:
I even linked to the original text so that others can read it. The translation of the Pyramid Texts, for example, is by one of the most respected Egyptologists of all time, Dr. James P. Allen.

The original text says nothing about a dying and rising god.

Acharya wrote:
Notice how this post - and the thousands of other pages I have produced on the same subject - has been completely ignored by the desperate Christian apologist. And that is the only way that such individuals can operate: To ignore every bit of evidence and to keep repeating the same falsehoods. We also note how the apologist does not know my work to be making such entirely erroneous claims about it.

The fact of the matter is that you don't know anything about me. You don't know what I have or have not read. If you think your case is so powerful, why not make money and take the Zeitgeist challenge at Zeitgeist.com?

Acharya wrote:
As we can see from this example, Christian apologists do not even read the responses to their robotic requests but plow along as if no response was forthcoming. Obviously, we can see the dishonesty and shamelessness here - a prime example, in fact, as it is quite evident this person did not even read the posts in this thread before making erroneous remarks. This person provides a perfect example demonstrated all over the internet of the fallacies and inability to examine the evidence demonstrated as it is provided. He has not read what I provided but merely repeated the same falsehoods.

No, actually the opposite is true. It's that I DID read your comments but I didn't see any primary sources. You still have an opportunity to produce just one.

As I said before, the first account of a dying and rising god that somewhat parallels Christ, dates to about A.D. 150 (Adonis). The next is 3rd century A.D. (Attis).

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:22 am 
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Acharya wrote:
Here is an illustration of the very ancient myth of Horus raising Osiris from the dead. This illoe is from Budge's OSIRIS AND THE EGYPTIAN RESURRECTION, II, p. 83.

Image

Here is another ancient Egyptian image of Horus raising Osiris from the dead, this time from Rev. Dr. J.P. Lundy's Monumental Christianity, p. 403.

Image


What does this text date to? It dates to the late second century A.D.

Osiris never died.

"Osiris knew no resurrection, but was resusitated to be a ruler of the netherworld." [See Wagner, Pauline Baptism and the Mystery Religions, p. 261].

French scholar Ronald de Vaux, was director of the Ecole Biblique in Jerusalem. He said Osiris:

"Will never come again among the living and will reign over the dead." [Vaux, The Bible and the Ancient Near East, p. 236].

Dr. TND Mettinger is a senior Swedish scholar, professor at Lund University and a member of the Royal Academy of Letters, History and Antiquities of Stockholm. He stated:

"Osiris was zombified, not resurrected. And he is the status of god of the netherworld -- a gloomy, shadowy place of semi-consciousness. [ Metttinger, The Riddle of Resurrrection].

The evidence of Osiris resucitation -- not resurrection -- date to prior to the middle of the late 2nd century AD. [see Habermas, Replies to Evan Fales: The Appearances of Jesus, Philosophia Christi, Series 2, 3.1 (2001), 79].

EDIWN YAMAUCHI'S CREDENTIALS

Knows 22 languages, including Akkadian, Aramaic, Greek, Hebrew, Chinese, Comanche, Coptic, Egyptian, Mandaic, Syriac, and Ugaritic.

He has received eight fellowships from Brandeis, Rutgers, and elsewhere; delivered eighty-eight papers on Mithraism, Gnosticism and other topics at scholarly societies; published nearly 200 articles and reviews in professional journals, lectured at more than a hundred colleges and universities, including Cornell, Princeton, Temple, Yale, and the University of Chicago; and participated in archaeological expiditions, including the first excavation of the Herodian temple in Jerusalem. He has been called "a scholars, scholar." He hold's a Ph.D. in Mediteranean Studies from Brandeis University.

Read his book "Persia and the Bible."

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:57 am 
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Achrya, have you seen this Youtube response to your response?

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmUGPbNkFeU)

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:18 am 
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GreekOrthodoxy wrote:
As I said before, the first account of a dying and rising god that somewhat parallels Christ, dates to about A.D. 150 (Adonis). The next is 3rd century A.D. (Attis).


Where are you getting your dates? They are simply not accurate. Attis was definitely BCE not CE and Adonis was also BCE. Adonis cult was long about 600 BCE

I hate using Wickedpedia, but for I will since it so late and I should be sleeping...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adonis

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:41 am 
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GreekOrthodoxy,

Is your only tactic here to DENY & LIE? You rigidly adhere to repeating outdated and false apologist arguments while you've never studied these issues for yourself.

I asked this question of you in the other thread and you skirted around it - I'll ask again.

What other languages do you speak, read and/or write? What are you going to do with an ancient Egyptian hieroglyph from 4,000 years ago? What credentials do you have? What formal training do you have in this area of expertise? Are you a biblical scholar? An archaeologist? A Preacher or what? Where are you coming from beyond just age-old tiresome Christian apologetics?

You're going to have to be honest & sincere here. Why couldn't you answer such a basic question about yourself? What are you trying to hide?

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You're wasting your time, Mriana. This guy didn't read Acharya's writings, and he just keeps repeating the same LIES.

Quote:
What does this text date to? It dates to the late second century A.D.

Osiris never died.

"Osiris knew no resurrection, but was resusitated to be a ruler of the netherworld." [See Wagner, Pauline Baptism and the Mystery Religions, p. 261].

What text? You don't even know where that image came from, but you just make up a date.

Osiris "never died?" Where are YOUR primary sources to prove this ridiculous lie? As people who've actually read Acharya's posts above can see, you are just repeating absurd hair-splitting arguments that are false. Who do you think you're kidding?

Quote:
French scholar Ronald de Vaux, was director of the Ecole Biblique in Jerusalem. He said Osiris:

"Will never come again among the living and will reign over the dead." [Vaux, The Bible and the Ancient Near East, p. 236].

Acharya thoroughly addressed this debate in her posts above, where she posted information about the Egyptian RESURRECTION, both spiritual and physical. You are lying about having read her posts - that is obvious.

Quote:
Dr. TND Mettinger is a senior Swedish scholar, professor at Lund University and a member of the Royal Academy of Letters, History and Antiquities of Stockholm. He stated:

"Osiris was zombified, not resurrected. And he is the status of god of the netherworld -- a gloomy, shadowy place of semi-consciousness. [ Metttinger, The Riddle of Resurrrection].

That's not accurate, as we can see from Acharya's long posts above. Again, where are YOUR PRIMARY SOURCES to make this assertion about "a gloomy, shadowy place of semi-consciousness?" That's just this guy's OPINION, and it's not based on the Egyptian texts.

Quote:
The evidence of Osiris resucitation -- not resurrection -- date to prior to the middle of the late 2nd century AD. [see Habermas, Replies to Evan Fales: The Appearances of Jesus, Philosophia Christi, Series 2, 3.1 (2001), 79].

Osiris is hacked into pieces - you mean he wasn't dead? What nonsense. Again, where are YOUR primary sources that state Osiris was "resucitated" not resurrected?

Quote:
EDIWN YAMAUCHI'S CREDENTIALS

Knows 22 languages, including Akkadian, Aramaic, Greek, Hebrew, Chinese, Comanche, Coptic, Egyptian, Mandaic, Syriac, and Ugaritic.

He has received eight fellowships from Brandeis, Rutgers, and elsewhere; delivered eighty-eight papers on Mithraism, Gnosticism and other topics at scholarly societies; published nearly 200 articles and reviews in professional journals, lectured at more than a hundred colleges and universities, including Cornell, Princeton, Temple, Yale, and the University of Chicago; and participated in archaeological expiditions, including the first excavation of the Herodian temple in Jerusalem. He has been called "a scholars, scholar." He hold's a Ph.D. in Mediteranean Studies from Brandeis University.

Read his book "Persia and the Bible."

That's nice for him. But he's a biased Christian who isn't looking at the data clearly. And if he's like you, he isn't even looking at the data at all - hes just denying it and lying about knowing it.

Read Acharya's books The Christ Conspiracy, Suns of God, Who Was Jesus? and Christ in Egypt.

I won't be holding my breath.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:50 am 
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GreekOrthodoxy wrote:
Achrya, have you seen this Youtube response to your response?

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmUGPbNkFeU)

Why do you keep spelling Acharya's name wrong? You can't even get that detail right, when it's right in front of you.

Yes, she's seen it, and she's refuted it - she refuted their nonsense before they even made these "challenges" - her books that came out *BEFORE* the Zeitgeist movie was ever made refutes their videos. But they, like you, know nothing about Acharya's work.

And, if the ZG Challenge kids are so confident why can't they come up with some *REAL MONEY* for their challenge? Why a mere $100 at first and then only later $250 - why not at LEAST $10,000 - if they're so confident why not get the church involved to put up $100,000 or $1,000,000? Surely all Christians would be up for such a challenge, RIGHT???

They don't do this because they can't meet their own requirements of proof - they themselves can't provide any valid primary source evidence for even a historical Jesus, let alone the biblical Jesus who was the son of god who did and said all of those things the bible claims. You can't get more hypocritical than that - they couldn't meet a Jesus Challenge if their life depended on it.

Oh, and it's obvious that they are like you - in fact, I wonder if you aren't one of them - and they will just ignore everything she brings up and keep repeating the same lies.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:47 pm 
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Osiris, the Dying and Rising Savior God

"Osiris never died."

According to professor of Classics and Egyptology Dr. John Gwyn Griffiths:

Quote:
Osiris was slain by Seth according to the story, although there are not many explicit references to this. Osiris-King is addressed thus: There is brought to thee the one who slew thee. (Pyr. 1339a; cf. 1977b). It is thus stated elsewhere that Seth attacked Osiris in the land of Gehestey and there felled him to the ground on the bank of Nedyet Isis and Nephthys had meanwhile been in search of their brother, and they found him at last lying on his side: Thou...hast come seeking thy brother Osiris, when his brother Seth had cast him on his side..." (Pyr. 972a-c; cf. 1008c, 1256a-b, 1280c-d, 1500a, and 2144a-b), who is called the King (1282a) as well as Osiris (1280c).

With this narrative one should probably connect the tradition that Osiris was drowned. There are three allusions in the Pyramid Texts to the place where thou was drowned (Pyr. 24d, 615d, 766d), where the reference of the pronoun is the Osiris-King....

Griffiths, The Origins of Osiris and His Cult, p. 9. (Emphasis added.)

In the Pyramid Texts and elsewhere, we find this phrase "lying on his side," which refers to someone who is dead. We also find the phrase "Stand up!," usually said by the Horus-priest attempting to resurrect the deceased Osiris-King.

As Dr. Claas Jouco Bleeker, a professor of Religious History at the University of Amsterdam, says:

Quote:
To lie on one's side, especially the left side, means to be dead. That Seth murdered Osiris is not stated in plain words, merely that "Osiris was laid on his side by his brother Seth" (pyr. 1500). The murder occurred at a place called Ndi.t: "his brother Seth cast him to the earth in Ndi-t" (pyr. 1256). But there are also allusions to death by drowing, for mention is made of "the place where thou art drowned" (pyr. 24, 615, 766). This idea is perpetuated in a hymn to Osiris, which relates how Isis searches for her murdered husband and brings his body ashore after discovering that he has evidently been drowned. Death by drowning also occurs in the renowned Shabaka text...

Bleeker, Hathor and Thoth, 131.

Egyptologist Dr. Samuel Mercer's rendering of Pyramid Text Pyr. 1339a is:

Quote:
To say: Osiris N., he who killed thee is brought to thee; cut (him) up; perform his execution.

Mercer, 218.

Dr. James P. Allen translates the same utterance (P 492) thus:

Quote:
Osiris Pepi, I have gotten for you the one who killed you, cut you up, with a knife used against him.

Allen, Ancient Egyptian Pyramid Texts, 172.

"Pepi" is the name of the deceased in this particular Pyramid Text, who takes the role of Osiris for the precise reason that Osiris died and was resurrected.

At Pyramid Text 606:1683a-1685b/M 336, Horus is vividly described as raising Osiris from the dead and avenging him:

Quote:
Stand up for me, father! Stand up for me, Osiris N…! It is I, your son: I am Horus.

I have come for you that I might clean you, cleanse you, revive you, assemble for you your bones, collect for you your swimming parts, and assemble for you your dismembered parts. For I am Horus who saves his father…

Allen, J., AEPT, 226; Mercer, 257; Faulkner, AEPT, 250.

The Osiris-King is also vividly resurrected by Horus at PT 662:1878a-1879b:

Quote:
Let them who are in their graves, arise; let them undo their bandages. Shake off the sand from thy face; raise thyself up (from) on thy left side, support thyself on thy right side (upright). Raise thy face, that thou mayest see that which I have done for thee. I am thy son, I am thine heir.

Mercer, 280.

Death and resurrection is an ongoing theme throughout the funerary/mortuary literature. The expected resurrection of the deceased is essentially the entire purpose of the funerary/mortuary literature, which consists of well over 1,000 chapters, spells, hymns and prayers.

The Coffin Texts - obviously named because they deal with DEAD PEOPLE - consist of some 1185 spells, most of which are designed to raise the Osiris-King from the dead. The speaker in the Coffin Texts is often the priest, representing Horus.

All of these FACTS are clearly laid out in the ancient Egyptian texts, for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

The rest of these fallacious contentions can be readily dealt with in the same way, as I have been doing for years now.

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